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On Privacy versus Freedom

matrix.org

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Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#71

Post by giancarlostoro »

tptacek wrote: post #66
giancarlostoro wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wire seemed like a decent alternative where you're not required a number, I think only an email. Also you can delete your account.

It's fine, but you should know that pretty much everything Moxie and Signal talk about contrast sharply with Wire. For instance: last I checked, Wire stores your entire social graph on their servers in a database --- effectively forever, Wire stores a plaintext log of everyone you've communicated with.

On the other hand, Wire lets you look at their server code, I assume there's nothing stopping you from hosting your own server.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#72

Post by xorcist »

tptacek wrote: post #70
xorcist wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, since there is no remote attestation possible for the Signal servers, and you realistically can't run one yourself, you only have their word that they don't store any of that information. This is similar guarantees that a lot of other chat and VPN companies offer. Personally I would consider any information given out to a company non-secret, especially to those operating outside my jurisdiction.

The difference is that Signal's competitors are designed in such a way that they have to keep this information, and Signal has delayed key features, like user profiles, until they've managed to create designs that don't have these restrictions. So the logic you're using here is essentially: "since we have to take Signal's word for some part of this, we might as well use services that promise the exact opposite". I do…

There's no reason to caricature anyone's arguments here. Why the antagonism?

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#73

Post by xorcist »

tialaramex wrote: post #2

I think the timing makes Moxie's point very well without him saying a thing. All these years later Matrix only has... The ambition to some day try to offer the core privacy features Signal already delivered back then. Some of the most basic stuff is, you believe, almost kinda sorta done. This is, to be clear, much better than just sitting back insisting you were right but not lifting a finger. But for an actual user…

Well, XMPP had working e2e encryption a decade before Signal. That's not really a reason to consider something done. Axolotl and OMEMO improved on OTR, and it seems OTRv4 will improve on it further.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#74

Post by e12e »

fulafel wrote: post #51
ex3ndr wrote: post #14

When i asked if i could use his libraries in ios/android apps Moxie refused. He licensed them under GPL that prohibits distributing of software via app stores. Quite a strange for a guy who claim that he wants to spread encryption. Sure, but only on your own platform. Fastforward he sold such rights for a whatsapp. Just simple business, nothing about privacy itself.

Why would GPL prevent distribution via app stores? I think I have at least one GPL app installed that way.

While some comments here mention freedom zero (ability to run the program) another problem with ios is that you can only build on Apple hardware - so there's limits on how you can distribute and use changes.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#75

Post by tptacek »

xorcist wrote: post #72
tptacek wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Signal's competitors are designed in such a way that they have to keep this information, and Signal has delayed key features, like user profiles, until they've managed to create designs that don't have these restrictions. So the logic you're using here is essentially: "since we have to take Signal's word for some part of this, we might as well use services that promise the exact opposite". I do…

There's no reason to caricature anyone's arguments here. Why the antagonism?

Help me understand where I've lapsed into caricature?

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#76

Post by yarrel »

nirs wrote: post #24
ex3ndr wrote: post #14

When i asked if i could use his libraries in ios/android apps Moxie refused. He licensed them under GPL that prohibits distributing of software via app stores. Quite a strange for a guy who claim that he wants to spread encryption. Sure, but only on your own platform. Fastforward he sold such rights for a whatsapp. Just simple business, nothing about privacy itself.

Can you explain how GPL prohibits distribution via app stores?

It doesn't. The Apple app store prohibits the GPL.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#77

Post by ddevault »

Moxie has always gaslit users with legitimate concerns because addressing them would mean giving up power. Signal is a self serving design and driven by self serving decisions. I've written about this in depth before:

https://drewdevault.com/2018/08/08/Signal.html

I still stand by everything I said here, and lots more that goes unsaid in this article. Every single weird decision Signal makes is not because they've reasonably decided to come down on some side of the fence that others haven't - it's because their decisions serve moxie's wants above anyone else.

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#78

Post by dang »

ddevault wrote: post #77

Moxie has always gaslit users with legitimate concerns because addressing them would mean giving up power. Signal is a self serving design and driven by self serving decisions. I've written about this in depth before: https://drewdevault.com/2018/08/08/Signal.html I still stand by everything I said here, and lots more that goes unsaid in this article. Every single weird decision Signal makes is not because they've re…

No personal attacks on HN, please, regardless of how right you are or feel, or how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Maybe you don't owe that person better, but you owe this community better if you're posting here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#79

Post by haffenloher »

xorcist wrote: post #69
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fine, but you should know that pretty much everything Moxie and Signal talk about contrast sharply with Wire. For instance: last I checked, Wire stores your entire social graph on their servers in a database --- effectively forever, Wire stores a plaintext log of everyone you've communicated with.

To be fair, since there is no remote attestation possible for the Signal servers, and you realistically can't run one yourself, you only have their word that they don't store any of that information. This is similar guarantees that a lot of other chat and VPN companies offer. Personally I would consider any information given out to a company non-secret, especially to those operating outside my jurisdiction.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but remote attestation is in fact exactly what they're doing with their contact discovery: https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/

Re: On Privacy versus Freedom

#80

Post by tialaramex »

xorcist wrote: post #69
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fine, but you should know that pretty much everything Moxie and Signal talk about contrast sharply with Wire. For instance: last I checked, Wire stores your entire social graph on their servers in a database --- effectively forever, Wire stores a plaintext log of everyone you've communicated with.

To be fair, since there is no remote attestation possible for the Signal servers, and you realistically can't run one yourself, you only have their word that they don't store any of that information. This is similar guarantees that a lot of other chat and VPN companies offer. Personally I would consider any information given out to a company non-secret, especially to those operating outside my jurisdiction.

> You only have their word that they don't store any of that information.

No, we have the fact that they don't collect it in the first place. The whole point of the Signal design, reflected in the published source code, is that the server doesn't need this type of information and so it isn't sent to their server at all.

As Thomas explained this takes a bunch of extra effort in the Signal design, hoop jumping that normal users will never appreciate. Moxie believes this is worth doing, although I think people's constant cynicism is gradually wearing him down or maybe that's just the jetlag.

If you tell me and Alice and Bob your real name, and then it's leaked to the press, I guess I sympathise if you distrust me as a result even though Alice is a famous gossip.

But if you only gave Alice your name, and then you distrust me because she sold it to the press that makes you a crazy person. "It could have been anyone". No, it couldn't, it was Alice. She's the only person you gave it to.

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