Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia • Hacker News Board

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#171

Post by crispinb » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

yassam wrote: post #168

As an Australian resident and now citizen for 20 years, I've been pretty angry since that last federal election. So many people here are still denying man-made global warming, and that includes our own government, which stood in the way of progress at COP25 [1]. Even now, in the midst of unprecedented heat, drought and fire that has gripped this continent for months, if not years, "friends" of mine regularly post the…

So many people here are still denying man-made global warming

That isn't really true beyond the margins. Polls show that a large majority of Australians have accepted the science on climate collapse for two decades.

Australians know what's happening, but they believe their wealth can insulate them personally from the consequences while they watch dusky foreigners die. The last federal election contained an implied declaration of environmental war on the Pacific island nations, with the tradeoffs very clearly spelled out in the campaign.

Australia is a rogue nation of self-comforting nihilists, for whom Scott Morrison is a very natural leader.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#172

Post by eeh » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #123

eeh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counting exports would lead to double counting: once for the exporter, once for the user. All that matters is countries having fair targets, and meeting those targets. Countries are free to meet their emissions reductions targets how they like, including buying cheap coal from Australia, planes from US, and cars from Germany.

It would double count emissions but it does mean that Australia could do more than just eliminate their own emissions, they could limit other countries' as well by stopping export.

Let's walk before we can run. It's difficulty enough to get countries to reduce their own emissions. Asking them to compromise their exports to reduce others' emissions is simply not viable at the moment.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#173

Post by bjowen » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

h0l0cube wrote: post #105

Scarblac wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but apparently there are now also lots of forests burning that have never burned before and where the trees aren't adapted for it.

These are typically areas where eucalypts have died off after centuries, allowing other species to fill the gap. Now that the fires have come through, the eucalypts will come back to fill the gaps and will quickly out-compete any other plants with superior height and canopy. They will get their next chance, a few centuries hence.

This isn’t true of the areas of greatest concern, where Gondwanan rainforest is burning. Eucalyptus is the newcomer, and it is fire-adapted and hot weather adapted, it out-competes the ancient forests where there are fires, and the nothofagus does not grow back.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#174

Post by bjowen » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 9:47 PM UTC

crispinb wrote: post #171

yassam wrote: post #168

As an Australian resident and now citizen for 20 years, I've been pretty angry since that last federal election. So many people here are still denying man-made global warming, and that includes our own government, which stood in the way of progress at COP25 [1]. Even now, in the midst of unprecedented heat, drought and fire that has gripped this continent for months, if not years, "friends" of mine regularly post the…

So many people here are still denying man-made global warming That isn't really true beyond the margins. Polls show that a large majority of Australians have accepted the science on climate collapse for two decades. Australians know what's happening, but they believe their wealth can insulate them personally from the consequences while they watch dusky foreigners die. The last federal election contained an implied de…

“The margins” also unfortunately include the perpetually outraged Alan Jones, and every policy pie his pudgy fingers poke.

+1 on your diagnosis of the cultural problem.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#175

Post by crispinb » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

bjowen wrote: post #174

crispinb wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many people here are still denying man-made global warming That isn't really true beyond the margins. Polls show that a large majority of Australians have accepted the science on climate collapse for two decades. Australians know what's happening, but they believe their wealth can insulate them personally from the consequences while they watch dusky foreigners die. The last federal election contained an implied de…

“The margins” also unfortunately include the perpetually outraged Alan Jones, and every policy pie his pudgy fingers poke. +1 on your diagnosis of the cultural problem.

Yes absolutely, of course. No-one can deny the outsized political significance of those margins along many dimensions (marginal rural constituencies, the Liberal/Nat/LNP right-wing factions, Alan Jones' grumpy gossiping old men, perpetually outraged about anything done by anyone under 60, the Murdoch press, etc).

I guess my point is that these extreme margins gain their power only because of the nihilism of the skittish 'moderate' Australian majority, which knows enough, and cares little about anything of significance.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#176

Post by Hallucinaut » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #157

Intermernet wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia is also actively not supporting local research and development into renewable energy technologies. Even if I bought the whole "we're only a small contributor to the problem, so it's not really our problem" argument (which I obviously don't), it'd be nice if we at least supported research and development that could actually make money as opposed to holding to the hard line that "anthropogenic climate change…

We do support research and development in renewable technologies. It gets farmed out to China because they are better at building things cost effectively than we are [0, 1]. And again, while Australia is quite strong per-capita, renewable energy is a very hot focus in any number of research universities with billions of dollars being spent globally with results that are nothing short of miraculous. It isn't obvious t…

A close friend worked at a cutting edge solar farm organisation in Victoria and from everything he's told me, these opinions are way off base.

There is legitimate, marginally viable technology honed and perfected in Australia that always remains on the cusp because of endemic favourable treatment for fossil fuel and lack of strong support and willingness to invest.

To argue that the quality of life would be hit by changing govt funding priorities is like arguing against the construction of roads before automobiles were mainstream.

Also the suggestion that Australian research cannot make a difference I find unfathomable. Leave it to the "major players", so China and USA will just give away the technology for free? Why do any research at all, ever, there will always be someone better...

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#177

Post by h0l0cube » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

bjowen wrote: post #173

h0l0cube wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are typically areas where eucalypts have died off after centuries, allowing other species to fill the gap. Now that the fires have come through, the eucalypts will come back to fill the gaps and will quickly out-compete any other plants with superior height and canopy. They will get their next chance, a few centuries hence.

This isn’t true of the areas of greatest concern, where Gondwanan rainforest is burning. Eucalyptus is the newcomer, and it is fire-adapted and hot weather adapted, it out-competes the ancient forests where there are fires, and the nothofagus does not grow back.

This process happens too in Tasmania where most of that beautiful nothofagus grows. But you are right, these populations could be wiped out completely if fires increase and there's no chance for recovery - or the entire population is burnt. I wasn't suggesting that everything is okay, because it clearly isn't.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#178

Post by bjowen » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

foxhop wrote: post #122

I'm curious how all the permaculture farms and homesteads are faring. Are these alternative landscapes surviving or maybe thriving dispite the droughts and fires? Could the country promote or even mandate permaculture style landworks?

“Alternative landscapes” here really means exotic species that aren’t fire-propagated. There’s some evidence that exotics are protective of property in a low-intensity fire, but they’re also far more dependent on water, which is a desperately scarce resource, and many are deciduous, which adds to fuel loads.

The wide-scale promotion of non-native flora should be obvious enough as a non-starter.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#179

Post by bjowen » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #18

edflsafoiewq wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect them to actually do? The entire CO2 output of Australia could drop to zero with negligible effect on climate change.

> The entire CO2 output of Australia could drop to zero with negligible effect on climate change That's not quite true. You're not including Australia's extraction economy in that equation, only their local emissions. A similar miscalculation happens when people pretend Norway is a low CO2 output & impact nation by ignoring its extreme fossil fuel extraction per capita. The obvious answer is to stop feeding China's e…

Also it’d probably help if we stopped outsourcing our emissions to China by sending a bunch of manufacturing there.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#180

Post by bjowen » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 10:15 PM UTC

phs318u wrote: post #49

taneq wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our wholesale power prices are actually quite low. Residential power is expensive because rooftop solar is putting the economics of maintaining the grid into a death spiral.

Please support your claim with some evidence. I worked in the contestable electricity distribution business for 8 years from 2001 to 2009 and I can assure that your claim is complete bollocks.

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jes...