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Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

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301–310 of 444 posts

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#301

I like the idea of freeing people to be able to quit and get a new job any time, where quitting today means a real threat of losing one's home, transportation, or ability to eat (never mind fueling the cycle of debt that keeps so many down). I think it would be a net benefit if people could tell oppressive employers to fuck off without fear. However, a welfare state is a real thing to be worried about. My sister work…

If we want to free people from tyrannical employers, isn’t free healthcare step one? Perhaps some sort of more available food stamps step two? I would agree with a lot of the criticism of government should not target too closely etc, but those two programs seems pretty well run compared to the free market alternatives. At least when they are allowed to.

It's not really the tyranny of bad employers that you want to target through government intervention in the labor market, but the curb the unintended consequences of the good ones, which is also why I don't think UBI is the right weapon to use.

As wages have stagnated and been replaced through other incentives I kind of see ourselves entering a neo-feudalist society. We're not swearing oaths to our employers by any means, but we are being somewhat tied to the land, metaphorically. Healthcare is the lowest hanging fruit politically, but the unintended consequences of all non-monetary benefits should also be on the table.

Like companies building or compensating for housing. Pet insurance. Company doctors/clinics. Child care. All things we want and appreciate, and great to see in a benefits package, and fantastic that companies want to help people with those problems, but it's a bit disconcerting in the long run for the labor market and society if you think about how these things can potentially trap individuals. And how when companies pay for things instead of individuals and pricing gets hidden/warped how the market changes.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#302

I like the idea of freeing people to be able to quit and get a new job any time, where quitting today means a real threat of losing one's home, transportation, or ability to eat (never mind fueling the cycle of debt that keeps so many down). I think it would be a net benefit if people could tell oppressive employers to fuck off without fear. However, a welfare state is a real thing to be worried about. My sister work…

If we want to free people from tyrannical employers, isn’t free healthcare step one? Perhaps some sort of more available food stamps step two? I would agree with a lot of the criticism of government should not target too closely etc, but those two programs seems pretty well run compared to the free market alternatives. At least when they are allowed to.

Decoupling healthcare would be such a boon for small businesses. I don't understand why this point isn't made more often.

It's frequently the difference between someone being able to start and have a viable business or not. Remove that overhead and I think we'd see a flurry of activity and exploration that wasn't previously possible.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#303
post #224
post #208

How can a US Dollar based UBI solve the problems of automation when the Super Admins of the US Dollar are explicitly pursuing the opposite goal? According to the Federal Reserve website, 2/3 of their main goals are: 1. Seeking to maximize employment 2. Maintaining stable prices https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/what-economic-goals-does... Automation and ephemeralization minimize employment and prices, but the money…

You're right that it probably will lead to inflation. The only question is how much, because the fed right now is having a hard time providing inflation into the economy. The fed just pumped 500 billion in not QE, QE in the last month; but you wouldn't have noticed based on consumer price inflation.

Automation should naturally lead to deflation for many goods and services

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#304

I like the idea of freeing people to be able to quit and get a new job any time, where quitting today means a real threat of losing one's home, transportation, or ability to eat (never mind fueling the cycle of debt that keeps so many down). I think it would be a net benefit if people could tell oppressive employers to fuck off without fear. However, a welfare state is a real thing to be worried about. My sister work…

"welfare state" is a weak criticism. You're talking about a population that historically faced oppression and displacement. Given the context, doesn't make sense that a monthly check is the cause of alcohol addiction.

Yep, it's an American pastime to blame the poverty experienced by much of the indigenous population on the indigenous population. It makes people feel less guilty to be profiting from the status quo.

Criticism of indigenous folks without first acknowledging the real issues of genocide and disposession is problematic at best, racist at worst.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve misunderstood. I’m not suggesting that the rent would go up because of the increased demand for a living in Austin. I am suggesting that the rent would go up because everybody has at least $1,000 per month of free money, on top of whatever income they earned.

Rent prices are still governed by supply and demand (modulo some rent control), not by how much money the tenants have.

> Rent prices are still governed by supply and demand

This is not accurate. Rent prices have little to do with supply and demand, and are primarily driven by how much money tenants have (or more accurately, how much tenants can be bled for before they give up and leave).

This is why rent rises even when supply is greater than demand, and why rents rise even in places where demand is falling dramatically.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#306
post #46
post #41

The most exciting thing about UBI is how versatile its benefits are for human resilience. Work conditions unfair? you have a much easier time quitting knowing you won't be stuck with 0 income. Politics overrun with corporate money? flush it out with grassroots donations now that you have some pocket money. Sick of the day to day grind? take your money to a community that fits with your personality now that every comm…

Right, I think this is the most underrated consequence of UBI. I think another is the creative boom it could create. People would have room to create art, music, writing without feeling like they will become homeless without early success. That could create a whole new class of artists that couldn’t be possible otherwise.

> "People would have room to create art, music, writing without feeling like they will become homeless without early success."

We haven't exactly seen an explosion of creative works coming from those on public assistance already. When is this hypothetical wave of creativity supposed to kick in?

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#307

Is anyone interested in starting a member-owned "General Automation Corp" to just go ahead and UBI ourselves without waiting for politics? I'm seriously you guys. Bootstrap off some desert land, convert it into e.g. Village Homes[0] (but up to date) using Permaculture, et. al. including local carbon-neutral fuel production integrated into the ecosystem[1], lease/sell units, rinse and repeat. Alongside that, develop a…

If you invent a time machine, go back to places like Taos in the 1960s, lots hippy communes that are now weird architecture AirBNBs. History repeats itself, reality always wins.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#308
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> money is power Money isn’t power. Power is power. If Putin became bankrupt tonight, he’d still be one of the most powerful people on earth tomorrow morning. Power is the capacity to have others do what you want, including handing you their money when you need it. Case in point: how many million-dollar lottery winners ended up having any nontrivial influence on their community or state? Nearly 0.

Nitzan and Bichler argue quite convincingly that capital is power - money isn't necessarily power, but money-capital absolutely is.

No amount of capital (economic power) will save you from the power of the state to take it from you, should that idea arise in the minds of those who define the state policy.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#309

There is already a UBI in place for veterans who suffered one of a number of qualifying disabling conditions during as a result of military service. Veterans can receive nearly $4000/mo if they are 100% service connected. Some veterans have significant disabilities like missing limbs and others qualify for things like arthritis or tinnitus. Many (in my estimation most) of them could work but choose not to once they g…

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Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI just doesn't solve that Doesn't it though? You create a floor, so that anyone with a miserable job can say "screw you" and quit and go start their own business without having to worry about how they're going to make rent before the new business starts making money, and you get a lot more competition. More smaller companies instead of fewer bigger companies. And the big companies would have to pay more to get so…

The only way that works is if UBI is both guaranteed and super high. Like "everyone gets a guaranteed $50k/yr" super high. The UBI Yang and folks are talking about is so low that it doesn't offer any of those benefits. $1k/month worth of UBI wouldn't even cover average rent for a single person in any of the ~20 most populated cities in the US. $1k/month doesn't quite even cover the cost of child daycare for a single…

Making it guaranteed is implied. Making it huge is completely unnecessary and counterproductive.

$1k/month doesn't cover average rent in the most populated cities because the most populated cities have the highest rents and its purpose is not to make you average, it's to provide a floor. Supplying enough for the lowest rent in the lowest cost of living place is sufficient for that, and if you want more you can go get a job or find some other way to make money -- which the UBI continues to supplement, so it doesn't even have to pay very much.

It's not supposed to make it so you can live a happy life for a hundred years without ever working. It's just supposed to take starving and freezing to death off the table, and give you a lot more runway when you're trying to start a new business.

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