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Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

businessinsider.com

121–130 of 444 posts

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#121

"Altman, who favors UBI, said in exchange for a floor, he’d like to see no ceiling on earnings, as some, like presidential hopeful Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, have suggested. And like Friedman, Altman suggested tying the amount of the basic income to a fixed percentage of GDP. “Right now, because people are rightly angry that there's no floor, and that most people have no real chance to be super successful, we sort…

> money is power

Money isn’t power. Power is power. If Putin became bankrupt tonight, he’d still be one of the most powerful people on earth tomorrow morning. Power is the capacity to have others do what you want, including handing you their money when you need it. Case in point: how many million-dollar lottery winners ended up having any nontrivial influence on their community or state? Nearly 0.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How does UBI even work? If Indian reservations in the USA are any indication, it clearly doesn’t.

There's no UBI for Native Americans in the US.

This is not correct. Some tribes have large sovereign wealth funds and other valuable tribal assets, the income from which is used to fund UBI for members of the tribe. These payments can be substantial, significantly larger than what Yang proposes in some cases.

Many of these tribal UBI systems have been in place for decades, so they are a good laboratory for studying the effects of UBI on population behavior.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#123

"Altman, who favors UBI, said in exchange for a floor, he’d like to see no ceiling on earnings, as some, like presidential hopeful Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, have suggested. And like Friedman, Altman suggested tying the amount of the basic income to a fixed percentage of GDP. “Right now, because people are rightly angry that there's no floor, and that most people have no real chance to be super successful, we sort…

> The problem with having a handful of people be billionaires and trillionaires is that money is power, and with that amount of money you have nearly unlimited power and influence over everyone and everything. A system that will concentrate that much power will be inherently evil, it will and does serve the needs of that few over the needs of the many. It is kind of right but essentially wrong. In any society with th…

Completely agree. I would rather have hierarchies determined by free-market forces rather than a state-organized system. Corporate monopolies should be deterred by the state, but trying to cap individual success via something like a wealth tax would cause problems for the whole market.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the Chinese YouTube’s have positive cash flow? I don’t even know if youtube has positive cash flow.

I was curious about Youtube too, apparently around 2015 they started breaking even. I couldn't find any more recent articles, although there were a whole bunch in 2009 about how much money it was losing. https://www.itproportal.com/2015/02/26/youtube-still-loss-le... I think an obvious but interesting thing about video-based business models in general is how their storage costs per video are basically indefinitely co…

> 20 years from now Youtube might have 100x more content to store on their servers but it probably won't be getting 100x the views.

Why can't they start deleting old videos?

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#125

The government would need to get money somewhere for the UBI program. It can only do so either through taxation, or by printing money, as the government is not a value-generation enterprise. If UBI gets its funding by taxation, UBI can't work economically (not to say it wouldn't be "UBI"). Even if you tax all the rich people, it won't provide enough money for the program. Besides, you can't really tax the rich, the m…

Public schooling is probably the most valuable thing humanity has ever done.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#126
post #2

Great to see tech leaders get behind UBI. Now is the time and Yang is the candidate of a lifetime. I never understood how people buy into the whole "break up the tech giants" argument. It makes no sense, just a great platitude with no real accomplishment. Who wants to use the 2nd best Twitter or Facebook? Not a single person.

Usually "breakup" is a byword for regulate. However, it's possible to see how Amazon being broken into at least one online retailer, a web services company, and a logistics provider and how that may increase competition in each of those markets. Further, even in your social example, people used Instagram before Facebook bought them and likely still would if divested, and Snap, Tik Tok and more are going strong as ind…

Amazon needs have it's retail side split into a marketplace operator and a retailer.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proponents of breaking up tech giants would argue that Twitter and Facebook are not actually very good products right now Based on what criterion? > reason they're popular is largely due to network effects and anticompetitive behavior, not innovation Can you give any examples of anticompetitive behavior exhibited by social media companies? > the existence of competition would force the original Twitter to innovate…

In regards to your last point: My understanding is that, for example, Valve might be broken up into two companies: - Valve: Produces video games such as Half Life, TF2, and Portal - Steam: Sells video games If Steam then sold Half Life 3, it would no longer be 1st party software because it is made by Valve not Steam. Granted, that will never happen because Valve will never make Half Life 3. -_-

> that will never happen because Valve will never make Half Life 3.

They just aren’t using the name.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life:_Alyx

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#128
post #121

"Altman, who favors UBI, said in exchange for a floor, he’d like to see no ceiling on earnings, as some, like presidential hopeful Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, have suggested. And like Friedman, Altman suggested tying the amount of the basic income to a fixed percentage of GDP. “Right now, because people are rightly angry that there's no floor, and that most people have no real chance to be super successful, we sort…

> money is power Money isn’t power. Power is power. If Putin became bankrupt tonight, he’d still be one of the most powerful people on earth tomorrow morning. Power is the capacity to have others do what you want, including handing you their money when you need it. Case in point: how many million-dollar lottery winners ended up having any nontrivial influence on their community or state? Nearly 0.

Holding all else equal, of course it is the case that giving someone more money increases their ability to something done in the political plane. But it seems to be an article of faith in many people that money can be very simply translated into unlimited amounts of political power in a way that is I think not supported by the evidence.

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Payroll tax, including the nominally “employer” portion, is really a tax on worker pay (the employer portion just makes the rate seem lower; for an honest accounting, it would be counted in both employee pay and employee taxes) as it comes out of what the employer is willing to pay for the work.

It effectively raises the price the company has to pay and thus lowers profits.

It's functionally shows up as a cost, but that doesn't make it a tax.

Consider: if a company had no profits at all, then for some period of time it would still (1) pay its employees (2) pay the payroll tax on behalf of those employees. The amount of payroll tax is 100% determined by employee compensation, not corporate profit (even if those two are indirectly connected).

You're more or less arguing that employee compensation is a tax too, since it also "raises the price the company has to pay and thus lowers profits".

Re: Sam Altman and Andrew Yang talk UBI

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming you're asking in good faith, so I'll point out three problems with your line of thought. First, you assume that having multiple competitors is pointless if one product is the clear winner. Proponents of breaking up tech giants would argue that Twitter and Facebook are not actually very good products right now, and the reason they're popular is largely due to network effects and anticompetitive behavior,…

> Proponents of breaking up tech giants would argue that Twitter and Facebook are not actually very good products right now Based on what criterion? > reason they're popular is largely due to network effects and anticompetitive behavior, not innovation Can you give any examples of anticompetitive behavior exhibited by social media companies? > the existence of competition would force the original Twitter to innovate…

> Based on what criterion?

This is obviously subjective, but based on the criterion that the sites don't work very well. Recommendation systems on all of these platforms are abysmal, and they don't seem to be improving -- they seem to be getting worse. Most changes being made on sites like Twitter are poorly received by users. When the last time there was a change on Twitter that everyone liked?

Most of these sites are slow. Gmail is actively getting slower over time, to the point where it now has an extra loading screen. It's not clear to me what features have been added to justify that.

On sites like Youtube, creators are now at the point where they view the website like an existential threat. Youtube provides almost no real mechanisms for creators to fight copyright claims, its monetization rules and promotion algorithms are opaque and difficult to navigate.

Again, it's subjective whether you should look at that kind of stuff and say, "well no one could do it better." I look at platforms like Mastodon and say, "well, clearly some people are doing stuff like moderation and open API access better than sites like Twitter/Facebook." I look at sites like Nitter and think, "well, if one person built this, and even as just a blind proxy it seems to work better than Twitter's site in multiple ways, then Twitter isn't trying very hard."

> Can you give any examples of anticompetitive behavior exhibited by social media companies?

On Facebook: the email dump that came out late 2019[0] is a good place to start. In it, you can see Facebook design "open" data APIs where access was restricted to partners who spent certain amounts of money on ads. Companies that were considered competitive with Facebook's offerings were excluded from that already problematic agreement. If Facebook saw you as a potential threat, you were essentially banned from the platform.

On Instagram: users were threatened with loss of status and verification if they linked to other platforms in their bios[1]. Eventually, the code was changed to detect "add me" links and outright block them from being included on bios at all. This is a very bold, open attempt to hold a userbase hostage, counting on the fact that Instagram/WhatsApp users have too much to lose to go against the policy.

I know you specifically asked about social media, but if I can broaden that out a tiny bit: on Google's front, Chrome is advertised prominently in every one of Google's products, for free. Google offerings are also built to work best in Chrome even to the point of breaking standards[2].

This kind of "by default" push for Chrome on Android devices and in Google products is, in my mind, very reminiscent of the IE antitrust case the Microsoft got slammed with.

We could go on, but I don't want this to get too long. But it really shouldn't be difficult for you to imagine why someone might claim tech giants are anticompetitive, even if you disagree with those reasons. Heck, a new accusation gets posted to HN at least once a week -- just look at the conversations around AMP's search-result placement.

> If the "original" twitter kept the twitter brand and domain, absolutely nothing would change since that would be the equivalent of the status quo.

Based on Facebook's reactions to Instagram, Snapchat, and other similar competitors, this isn't the case. Every time Facebook has felt threatened by a competitor, in the brief period before they bought them, they were forced to uptake user-friendly features. In regards to Snapchat, some of those features were more privacy-friendly than what Facebook was currently offering.

A better argument that I'd be more sympathetic to here would be that Facebook already regularly feels the pressure of competition, and breaking them up isn't necessary. But it seems strange to me to argue that competition wouldn't do anything at all, given that we have a lot of examples of competition making these platforms better.

> Right, but those products exist because they serve a niche in the market, simply breaking up companies doesn't create a niche.

No, but simply having an unserved niche in the market also doesn't mean a product will fill it. That's what people are getting at, that there are niches that would be filled by competing OSes and products if there weren't anticompetetive forces keeping those products from existing.

You need two things for a niche product to exist -- you need a real niche that's unmet, and you need an opportunity to create that product. Proponents of breaking up big-tech argue that we have the first, and not the second.

Once again, I think there is a case to be made that the situation isn't as bad as people say -- that we do have competitors starting to pop up for Facebook/Twitter, and talk about forcing the market is unnecessary right now. I'm not going to get into that argument, but I don't think the people who make it are dumb.

> Would Valve be allowed to sell 1st party software on Steam? Would Google be allowed to sell their software on the play store?

Roughly speaking, that's the intent. Google would be able to sell software on the Play store, but then Google couldn't own the Play store, it would need to be spun out into another company.

Similar rules have been proposed for media companies and ISPs; people argue that a company like T-Mobile shouldn't be able to simultaneously operate an Internet service and merge with a media provider on that service -- that would create a conflict of interest that would threaten Net Neutrality.

This sounds extreme on the software front because we have a pretty long history of companies doing exactly that -- creating a search engine and then using it to promote Chrome, creating a Play store and then using it to make sure that Gmail has prominent placement. People like Warren argue this is just as anticompetitive as an ISP operating a streaming service.

[0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2018/12/05/email-dum...

[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/3/11157124/instagram-blocks-...

[2]: https://www.cnet.com/news/mozilla-exec-says-google-slowed-yo...

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