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IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

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Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#301

Post by rayiner »

xtracto wrote: post #38

This USA tax thing has always baffled me... it is the exact definition of why we pay taxes: for the government to provide services that are common to the country´s citizens. There´s nothing more common than tax collection: rich, middle class or poor. Why wouldn't citizens demand a public tax filing process? Even in Mexico we have an automagical tax filing process that makes: a) The great majority of the population wh…

> Why wouldn't citizens demand a public tax filing process?

Because they don’t want to make it easy for the government to impose lots of taxes. Americans have the lowest taxes in the developed world. Not especially for rich people, but for everyone else: https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/I....

This isn’t the work of some secretive cabal of billionaires. Rich people hire accountants to do their taxes anyway. The absence or existence of free tax filing doesn’t affect them at all. But a platform of “we’re going to make taxes painful so the government is afraid to raise taxes” gets a lot of votes. (In my view, is nothing bad about people being confronted once a year with the cost of the government to themselves. I just looked at my taxes for 2018 and concluded I’m taxed too little and would rather pay more for a government that offers more services. But people should be making that decision with eyes wide open.)

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#302

Post by dahfizz »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #177
dahfizz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it comes down to who people trust. Americans on the whole don't trust their government quite a lot. If the government just said "you owe X in tax this year", nearly everyone's knee jerk reaction would be that the government is overestimating and cheating them. On the other hand, you can pay a flat fee to let a third party fight the government on your behalf. That's something that many Americans like the sound…

It's the same problem as with auto repair and medicine. It's nice that we have competing providers, except we don't have the expertise to judge their performance.

> except we don't have the expertise to judge their performance.

Well, this is a bit different in that regard. Last time I tried it, it was free to put all my info into turbo tax and see what my amount owed would be, and then it would be a fee to actually file. I assume most tax software works that way.

So it's actually very easy and objective to see the performance of these systems. It would obviously be a big hassle though to spend a whole afternoon playing with all the different tax softwares.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#303

Post by krtong »

alistairSH wrote: post #67

In the US, we've had decades of (largely GOP) messaging that the government can't do anything properly. A substantial portion of the population believes it. As noted in a sibling comment, the IRS could pre-fill forms that would be correct for the vast majority of tax payers (who take the standard deduction/don't itemize, have a single job, and no other edge cases). These people should not be paying TurboTax either wa…

You can go further back to the founding of the nation for why this is. It didn't start with the GOP. Things that would be nationalized in other countries like the railroads have always been private in america. Even when Alexander Hamilton and George Washington had taxpayers of New Jersey pay for the country's first manufactories in Paterson, they were all private industries. Abraham Lincoln privatized all the railroads and telegraph lines after the civil war. (We had nationalized them for the war effort, so taxpayers paid for thousands of miles of railroad that was handed off to railroad companies.) You can even go further back, before the united states was even a thing and look at mercantilism, where merchants/private industry ran the country, but it was understood that they were subservient to the nation, economic growth's sole purpose was for national defense, and you took care of your citizenry because they were your troops. Thanks to the civil war, the 2nd industrial revolution, the gilded age, globalism, america has taken more and more turns towards 'every man for themself' and not giving a shit about the country, so obviously well-intentioned privatization of public utilities makes less and less sense.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#304

Post by empath75 »

jjeaff wrote: post #11

There is no reason the IRS shouldn't have a simple, online fillable 1099EZ that makes the calculations and validations for you. And while their at it, match the SSN to the w2 info that they have on file. This would take care of 80% of the population. Just don't outsource it. I'm sure USDS could have it ready in less than a year.

> I'm sure USDS could have it ready in less than a year.

The federal government provides a lot of valuable services that private companies can’t or won’t do, but building something like that in a year isn’t one of them.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#305

Post by ma2rten »

rayiner wrote: post #301
xtracto wrote: post #38

This USA tax thing has always baffled me... it is the exact definition of why we pay taxes: for the government to provide services that are common to the country´s citizens. There´s nothing more common than tax collection: rich, middle class or poor. Why wouldn't citizens demand a public tax filing process? Even in Mexico we have an automagical tax filing process that makes: a) The great majority of the population wh…

> Why wouldn't citizens demand a public tax filing process? Because they don’t want to make it easy for the government to impose lots of taxes. Americans have the lowest taxes in the developed world. Not especially for rich people, but for everyone else: https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/I... . This isn’t the work of some secretive cabal of billionaires. Rich people hire accountants to do the…

Not if you into account the price of health insurance...

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#306

Post by danieltillett »

xrd wrote: post #279
danieltillett wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not insane, just not obvious what Grover’s aim is. He is anti-tax for a large number of reasons. By making paying tax painful for the majority of people he is trying to increase the percentage of the population that hate the IRS and taxes. All very sane if your aim is to lower taxes.

Ok, this makes me feel like maybe he had intention and thought behind this. I can honestly align with that thinking if he was doing it for this reason. It seems like the world only works with subterfuge, sadly. Is it impossible to be honest about what you want to do and move people in that direction, or is it only possible to motivate change by lying to people. I don't love Grover Norquist, but I thought it was inter…

Whatever Grover Norquist is, stupid is not one. He appears to be quite a complex (if obsessed) person and his views outside of taxation don’t fall easily on the normal left/right axis [1].

1. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#307

Post by CorvusCrypto »

rayiner wrote: post #301
xtracto wrote: post #38

This USA tax thing has always baffled me... it is the exact definition of why we pay taxes: for the government to provide services that are common to the country´s citizens. There´s nothing more common than tax collection: rich, middle class or poor. Why wouldn't citizens demand a public tax filing process? Even in Mexico we have an automagical tax filing process that makes: a) The great majority of the population wh…

> Why wouldn't citizens demand a public tax filing process? Because they don’t want to make it easy for the government to impose lots of taxes. Americans have the lowest taxes in the developed world. Not especially for rich people, but for everyone else: https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/I... . This isn’t the work of some secretive cabal of billionaires. Rich people hire accountants to do the…

how would that affect ease of tax generation? You would still need to have the proper congressional authorities vote on the matter, no? And sure, when I am in sweden I get taxed more because of VAT and such, but having a national standard where I can just declare my taxes for the year by pushing a single button for free through the government tax app is a benefit to outweigh any worry that you will get shafted by new taxes. In the US it just seems backwards and no excuse can justify this. Horrible system.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#308

Post by arcticbull »

reaperducer wrote: post #299
arcticbull wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But not instantly. And not all of it in time for April 15th. Sometimes those details don't make it to the IRS for years. And yet it has to get there by tax time so I’m having trouble believing it takes some tax forms literally years to make it to DC. Especially when you go to jail if they don’t. > We don't yet live in a world of instantaneous information transfer about every American citizen to the government. Buuu…

And yet it has to get there by tax time so I’m having trouble believing it takes some tax forms literally years to make it to DC. It sounds like you've never needed to file a revised tax form for a previous year. I have, and millions of other people do it each year. Especially when you go to jail if they don’t. The IRS doesn't show up on your doorstep on April 16th if you don't file. There's a process. A long, involv…

> It sounds like you've never needed to file a revised tax form for a previous year. I have, and millions of other people do it each year.

Wouldn’t it be great if it was automatic and right the first time and you didn’t have to file amendments as a consequence because the source material made its way to the IRS AND they told you how much to pay? Or the frequency was dramatically reduced via automation?

> Because the vast majority of America's accountants are one or two person shops with neither the time nor the technology to make this happen.

(a) companies, employers, brokerages, etc all do this filing.

(b) we wouldn’t need nearly as many tax accountants, they’re just a drain on the economy. They’re employed to do the same thing as TurboTax: fill a hole intentionally left open in the IRS as a make work project. Like lamplighters, some jobs get obsoleted by technological and legal advancements.

Regular accountants sure. I’m talking about starting with individuals not business edge cases though.

(c) accountants already file quarterly, for me anyways...

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#310

Post by ajmurmann »

rednerrus wrote: post #233
hanniabu wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, there's a long list of items that help rig the system including outdated electoral votes, accepting unlimited funding from big business, the removal of term limits in 1995, and now the rampant gaslighting and spread of false news where the louder voice wins instead of facts coming out on top.

I once had a PS professor that liked to say "The problem with our system is the people who vote."

I prefer this Milton Friedman quote, because we cannot make better people:

> I do not believe that the solution to our problem is simply to elect the right people. The important thing is to establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing. Unless it is politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing, the right people will not do the right thing either, or it they try, they will shortly be out of office.

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