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IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

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281–290 of 489 posts

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#281
Excellent news, and congrats to Propublica for in no small part making it happen.

This wasn't just a shady operation -- Turbotax openly lied to customers about its free file program, it deliberately suppressed the program from search results, it lied to veterans. It was 100% acting in bad faith during negotiations with the IRS.

Sometimes topics like this end up becoming kind of ideological or partisan; but in this case I feel like Intuit is just very objectively in the wrong, and that the IRS agreement for the free file program very objectively just was not working. I myself contacted Turbotax about their free edition and got personally lied to about the differences between the programs.[0]

> In this call, I was told that the form availability between the Free File and Free edition were the same, and I wouldn't be eligible for either. To check this, I created a second account and added the same forms to the Free File program. I was never charged or told that I was ineligible. All of the forms were added successfully.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piuv7KH37D4

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#282
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The regression application here seems flawed, that assumes a fixed percentage is applied to a fixed amount, where that amount is invariant to income. That is not the case with a flat tax where a fixed percentage is applied to a variable amount. The flatness of the flat tax is on the percentage, the amount (income) is the variable portion that will be more or less based on the individual. The percents however will be…

A flat tax would be more regressive than a progressive tax scheme - it's a spectrum. > That's about as equal and fair as you can get Equal in terms of % of income paid: yes, fair: no way. Your statement makes the assumption that the opportunities to gain higher income are equally and fairly distributed, which they are manifestly not.

Actually I just tried to tease out a definition from the investopedia article, which I was mislead reading the sales tax example which has a fixed amount (the price of some taxable goods) which holds no sliding scale based on income. The regression appears to be strictly around the idea of burden to the individual and how much disposable income they get left with.

Looking at the wikipedia article they claim that flat tax lies between a regressive and progressive tax.

> The opposite of a regressive tax is a progressive tax, in which the average tax rate increases as the amount subject to taxation rises. In between is a flat or proportional tax, where the tax rate is fixed as the amount subject to taxation increases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_tax

Where in my statement does the assumption of equal income mobility pop up?

Another hit mentions a proportional tax as a middle ground between regressive and progressive gradients. The central point is how things are treated relative to income. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-are-dif...

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#283
post #38

This USA tax thing has always baffled me... it is the exact definition of why we pay taxes: for the government to provide services that are common to the country´s citizens. There´s nothing more common than tax collection: rich, middle class or poor. Why wouldn't citizens demand a public tax filing process? Even in Mexico we have an automagical tax filing process that makes: a) The great majority of the population wh…

Citizens do demand it, but the US does not have a government that is in any way responsive to the demands of the general citizenry.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#284
post #53
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An actual argument I've heard from TurboTax shills is that tons of people underpay taxes now with the self report system, and having the government pre-fill forms for you to rubber stamp would effectively increase taxes on the working class.

Great, sounds like TurboTax will still be able to compete if the IRS gives people tax filings precalculated, as TurboTax can say "We can save you $XXX!"

I’m sure for a large percentage of Americans like myself the “$XXX” that they saved you is just the standard deduction. Maybe at some point in my life an itemized deduction will actually save me more money, but every time I have filed taxes TurboTax looks at my info and decides that the standard deduction is the best I’m going to get. So for some percentage of Americans TurboTax won’t be able to compete because they can’t save you more than the IRS already did with its deductions.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've paid attention to the history of gerrymandering, you would know that both sides do it when in power and complain about it when not.

"Both have done it" is not the same as "both have done it equally". Nor does it mean "we should therefore be okay with it". If we support the idea of Democracy, we should stop abuses that harm democracy, even if it prevents abuses those we otherwise agree with have taken advantage of.

Not trying to defend the practice. I'm just annoyed by all the people who only complain about it when their preferred party is hurt by it and not when it goes the other way.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally all of that information is already being reported to the IRS by the relevant companies on forms 1098, 1099-whatever, W-2, W-4 and whatever other schedules apply. But not instantly. And not all of it in time for April 15th. Sometimes those details don't make it to the IRS for years. We don't yet live in a world of instantaneous information transfer about every American citizen to the government. Some people…

Then by all means, make citizens send in the relevant documents to the IRS- but don't force them to have to figure it out on their own if the IRS's software can already do it with those docs!

[deleted]

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#287
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 years later you don't just get to pay what you owed. There is interest to be paid as well. You can negotiate sure, but they could have just sent a pre-filled form saying "based on W-2 and what we already took out, here is how much you owe us, if you agree, sign, send the check and return it" or even better do it online.

In my experience the IRS will get back to you within a few months if there are errors at most with exactly the information you described. Where is this 6 years coming from?

I had an examination a few years ago. It was about 5 years after the fact. My wife and I were taking turns doing taxes and for some reason I forgot to give her the paperwork for an investment account one year.

It was not a pleasant experience. So they knew about this account, all the years before and then all the years after. We got a letter that said I under-reported my income for some year 5 years prior. I mentions the account and the amount. Explains that since I didn't report that account, it's treated like normal income for that year I owe them $80k plus penalties.... I forget the exact wording but prison time was mentioned for tax evasion in the initial letter. Hired a lawyer, hired an account, refiled that year and then the subsequent years since the account found some more deductions. Then it took about 2 years to get it closed out. We'd write a letter, 3 weeks later we'd get a letter back the said they'd respond to our letter within 90 days. After like 9 months the accepted our new tax submission but insisted we pay the penalties. It took another 15 months for those to get waived. It is infuriating fighting over penalties that no longer apply.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#288
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Needless to say all of this would be much more simple if we just pay a flat tax on all income for all people. Nothing simpler than that. That would be a highly regressive tax system that dramatically transfers even more wealth to the already wealthy. But sure, it's definitely simpler. That doesn't make it better.

The regression application here seems flawed, that assumes a fixed percentage is applied to a fixed amount, where that amount is invariant to income. That is not the case with a flat tax where a fixed percentage is applied to a variable amount. The flatness of the flat tax is on the percentage, the amount (income) is the variable portion that will be more or less based on the individual. The percents however will be…

My understanding is that while yes, in some sense a flat tax is neither progressive nor regressive, that's not really what people are talking about when they say a flat tax is regressive. Instead, the issue is that the poorer you are, the larger percent of your income is spent on essentials.

If I go from spending $200/month on groceries and then I get an enormous 300% raise at work, I'm not going to start spending $800/month on groceries, maybe $300. The rest goes into the discretionary part of my budget. So, to someone making $40,000/year, paying 20% of that in rent, 10% for food, 20% for healthcare, and 15% for other stuff, adding a 15% tax is a decent chunk of the rest of their budget. But, for someone making $400,000/year, paying 15% for rent, 2% for food, 10% for healthcare, and 15% for everything else, then 15% of their income towards taxes is comparatively much less of their total budget!

This is true, even though everyone is paying a proportional amount of their income. Another way of thinking about this is as follows: if there is a homeless woman on the side of the street who makes $30 one day begging for change, should she be taxed at 15% and have to give the government $4.50 because it's "fair", or, should she be receiving more value in benefits than the average citizen because there is a floor on how much you can spend on food and survive?

Thus, even a flat tax can in practice be regressive, because essential spending does not scale with income.

An addendum: While it is not relevant to this argument, I also agree with the other commenters that whether a tax system is flat or has marginal brackets is not the main source of complexity, and is relatively super simple. The main complexity comes from determining which sources count as income. Presumably, birthday presents don't, but whoops, now there's an exception. And this is suddenly how tax laws get super complicated.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally all of that information is already being reported to the IRS by the relevant companies on forms 1098, 1099-whatever, W-2, W-4 and whatever other schedules apply. The IRS defines the rules, they built an engine to take all that into account to ensure you're not lying on your taxes. They just have to literally run it and send you the printout for verification with a remittance stub. The rest is regulatory cap…

Literally all of that information is already being reported to the IRS by the relevant companies on forms 1098, 1099-whatever, W-2, W-4 and whatever other schedules apply. But not instantly. And not all of it in time for April 15th. Sometimes those details don't make it to the IRS for years. We don't yet live in a world of instantaneous information transfer about every American citizen to the government. Some people…

Imagine if the US gov't had spent a fraction of the resources that it has spent on NSA surveillance on the IRS and tax compliance.

The resources and infrastructure to increase tax compliance and make it easier for everyone exists it's just that it has been grossly misallocated.

Re: IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax

#290
post #226

Just fucking send me my filled out tax forms, like they do in other countries, you already know everything, and where you're wrong, I'll contest.

Doesn't work so well for the self-employed, alas.

Only if working with individuals. If I, as a consultant, work with a company, that company requires a W9 from me, and they have to report what they paid me. And I also report what I paid myself in salary and pay federal taxes from every paycheck I make out to myself. So at least for me, they know everything there is to know.
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