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Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

wsj.com

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Re: Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

#11

Their automated systems caused two crashes and their solution is to automate more systems? Have they literally gone insane?

This article[1] linked off of the OP goes into detail about their crashes. It describes a design philosophy that pushes robustness fully onto the pilot, expecting him to flawlessly stitch together independent automated systems and unreasonably rapidly interpret and react to their error modes. In the case described in the article, separate automated systems had contrasting views of the world, and shouted their contradictory errors at the pilots, relying on them to be able to instantly reconcile these models and figure out what the root problem was. (In this case, a specific sensor failure made a single system think the plane was pointed up, and this system made the isolated decision to push the nose downwards while warning that the nose was too high. Naturally, other systems simultaneously complained about the nosedive).

One solution, of course, is to remove automated systems from planes. But assuming they provide any value (I don't think this is in dispute?): another, more reasonable strategy is to commit more fully to an automated system design that is intentionally fault-tolerant, robust to system and sensor errors, and has a more complete view of the plane's world. Instead of requiring the overall state of the meta-system to be lossily communicated to humans in a time-critical emergency, the newer designs are intended to use all the information available to the plane's systems to reconcile subcompoments' contradictory view of the world. Note that this doesn't preclude human control at all: if anything, it makes pilot control _safer_, since the system can provide a coherent view to the pilot in a way that's currently impossible.

I don't know enough about large aircraft operation to fully comment on the wisdom of this approach, but it's substantially more complex than "auto system failed, why would they expand use".

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-four-second-catastrophe-how...

Re: Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

#12

My initial thought was it’s crazy to reach for more automation in the wake of automation-involved fatalities, but if I step back and think about it, they’re not wrong. There’s no way that piloting aircraft is going to become a more manual process. More automation is a given in the future. And since so much of the dangers of automation seem to be in the gray zone where it’s an opaque mix between human and computer, it…

I would've agreed with this stance before the Boeing disaster. Granted there are many things that could be (could have been) done to address the fragility of the 737 Max's automatic system, but the point is they weren't. And I don't know who in the world is going to trust Boeing to take over more parts of the piloting process, because they'll probably be executed just as badly.

Re: Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

#13

There are tons of math majors produced every year. Would be a viable business model to offer factory-style program-correctness-proving-as-a-service. Current proof services are mostly niche static analysis for stuff like Ethereum contracts and occasionally a wannabe legal-tech company. I think aerospace could use more proofs. You can't use Ada for everything, eventually you will have to code in C/C++.

Algorithmic correctness won't necessarily help you if the root problem is bad sensor data.

Re: Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

#15

There are tons of math majors produced every year. Would be a viable business model to offer factory-style program-correctness-proving-as-a-service. Current proof services are mostly niche static analysis for stuff like Ethereum contracts and occasionally a wannabe legal-tech company. I think aerospace could use more proofs. You can't use Ada for everything, eventually you will have to code in C/C++.

As far as I have been able to gather, the MCAS software performed exactly to spec. You may have been drawn to the Boeing straw man narrative "the software was faulty (we can fix it)".

Re: Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

#17
My knee jerk reaction to this is "more automation after an automation failure? Huh?". But whenever I think someone is being that stupid, it's always worth a second look, and it turns out the reality is more complex.

This article[1] linked off of the OP goes into detail about their crashes. It describes a design philosophy that pushes robustness fully onto the pilot, expecting him to flawlessly stitch together independent automated systems and unreasonably rapidly interpret and react to their error modes. In the case described in the article, separate automated systems had contrasting views of the world, and shouted their contradictory errors at the pilots, relying on them to be able to instantly reconcile these models and figure out what the root problem was. (In this case, a specific sensor failure made a single system think the plane was pointed up, and this system made the isolated decision to push the nose downwards while warning that the nose was too high. Naturally, other systems simultaneously complained about the nosedive).

One solution, of course, is to remove automated systems from planes. But assuming they provide any value (I don't think this is in dispute?): another, more reasonable strategy is to commit more fully to an automated system design that is intentionally fault-tolerant, robust to system and sensor errors, and has a more complete view of the plane's world. Instead of requiring the overall state of the meta-system to be lossily communicated to humans in a time-critical emergency, the newer designs are intended to use all the information available to the plane's systems to reconcile subcompoments' contradictory view of the world. Note that this doesn't preclude human control at all: if anything, it makes pilot control _safer_, since the system can provide a coherent view to the pilot in a way that's currently impossible.

I don't know enough about large aircraft operation to fully comment on the wisdom of this approach, but it's substantially more complex than "auto system failed, why would they expand use".

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-four-second-catastrophe-how...

Re: Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

#18

Their automated systems caused two crashes and their solution is to automate more systems? Have they literally gone insane?

This article[1] linked off of the OP goes into detail about their crashes. It describes a design philosophy that pushes robustness fully onto the pilot, expecting him to flawlessly stitch together independent automated systems and unreasonably rapidly interpret and react to their error modes. In the case described in the article, separate automated systems had contrasting views of the world, and shouted their contrad…

The auto system failed because they a) were band-aiding a flawed mechanical design b) under-designed the compensating software (only provided a single AOA sensor by default) to obscure the fact the plane was significantly different to avoid training costs. These are management problems, not technical problems. More automation would be subject to the same issues.

Re: Max Crashes Strengthen Resolve of Boeing to Automate Flight

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article[1] linked off of the OP goes into detail about their crashes. It describes a design philosophy that pushes robustness fully onto the pilot, expecting him to flawlessly stitch together independent automated systems and unreasonably rapidly interpret and react to their error modes. In the case described in the article, separate automated systems had contrasting views of the world, and shouted their contrad…

The auto system failed because they a) were band-aiding a flawed mechanical design b) under-designed the compensating software (only provided a single AOA sensor by default) to obscure the fact the plane was significantly different to avoid training costs. These are management problems, not technical problems. More automation would be subject to the same issues.

Crap I meant to make the above comment as a top level comment, not a response.. Somehow it came through twice.

Anyway, in response to your comment: perhaps I'm conflating these, but a commitment to robustness seems like it's included in the newer philosophy? It just extends that notion beyond the sensor-level to the system level.

Sure, you can frame an inadequate emphasis on robustness as a "management problem" instead of a technical one, but that seems equally applicable to the "management solution" being put forth, no?

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