Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#71

Post by chomp » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #47

I have mixed feelings about unions, but I'm OK with this move. Cafeteria workers need unions. The maids who muck out hotel room toilets need unions. Coal miners who work in horrific conditions for little pay need unions. You know who doesn't need unions? Millionaire TV anchors. Millionaire movie studio execs and actors. Anyone who makes six figures, which includes a hell of a lot of union members. In those cases the…

All workers can be abused regardless of their salary.

Examples for programmers that come to mind:

- Companies that require workers to enter arbitration and give up their right to sue.

- Companies that force workers to give up IP generated in their free time (not using company resources)

- Companies that require programmers to work 12 hour days, "crunch times", minimal paid leave (game dev industry, VFX industry comes to mind.)

Unions collectively negotiate with employers to reduce or eliminate these abuses. Some unions have poor leadership, which is to be expected. Some companies have poor leadership. Not everyone is good at negotiating, which can create power imbalances on either end of the table. But on the whole, unions are a Good Thing, even for IT folk.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#72

Post by kmlx » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #47

I have mixed feelings about unions, but I'm OK with this move. Cafeteria workers need unions. The maids who muck out hotel room toilets need unions. Coal miners who work in horrific conditions for little pay need unions. You know who doesn't need unions? Millionaire TV anchors. Millionaire movie studio execs and actors. Anyone who makes six figures, which includes a hell of a lot of union members. In those cases the…

> Cafeteria workers need unions. The maids who muck out hotel room toilets need unions. Coal miners who work in horrific conditions for little pay need unions.

aren't all those jobs ripe for automating? unions feel like an intermediary measure to the end goal: no more humans in shitty jobs.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#73

Post by greatscott404 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

shantly wrote: post #52

greatscott404 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Corporations are largely great assets to a country, labor unions on the other hand are parasitic cartels.

Well the high labor-rate negotiating power, relative to individuals, of corporations—legal entities created by our government(s)—is why we need unions, so I figure if we ditch one we can/should ditch the other, too.

I'm opposed to throwing the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#74

Post by brosinante » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #47

I have mixed feelings about unions, but I'm OK with this move. Cafeteria workers need unions. The maids who muck out hotel room toilets need unions. Coal miners who work in horrific conditions for little pay need unions. You know who doesn't need unions? Millionaire TV anchors. Millionaire movie studio execs and actors. Anyone who makes six figures, which includes a hell of a lot of union members. In those cases the…

Yeah let's create fake talking points about unions using the million-dollar salaried talking heads of media owners.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#75

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #50

vjktyu wrote: post #2

Good for them. As for the tech workers, they need something like a guild with membership fees and staff lawyers that would sue the state for allowing binding arbitration and non compete agreements (i.e. do what California did).

they need something like a guild with membership fees and staff lawyers that would sue the state for allowing binding arbitration and non compete agreements Serious question: How is this kind of a guild different from a union in your view?

Professional organisations are middle class, while unions are working class.

(Per downthread, the dividing line is really "if your organisation comes into conflict with the state, does the fight happen in a courtroom or on the street?")

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#76

Post by tehjoker » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

This was a really great Twitter thread about how capitalism isn't really about meritocracy but about bargaining power and by implication how necessary unions are for workers to be treated humanely and paid more than the bare minimum for survival:

https://twitter.com/ArashKolahi/status/1210332075787608065

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#77

Post by shantly » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

greatscott404 wrote: post #73

shantly wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the high labor-rate negotiating power, relative to individuals, of corporations—legal entities created by our government(s)—is why we need unions, so I figure if we ditch one we can/should ditch the other, too.

I'm opposed to throwing the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

Sure, then we can keep corporations around as long as we balance their government-enabled incredible labor rate negotiating position with something comparably effective for workers.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#78

Post by greatscott404 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #49

greatscott404 wrote: post #3

The only reason labor unions are legal is that certain unions have outsized political clout, in a perfect world labor unions would be illegal under antitrust laws as forcing companies to pay workers more than what a free market dictates inevitably increases prices.

In a perfect world, unions would be unnecessary. I think that would be a less controversial opinion. Wanting them to be illegal is more a moralization of your economic ideology - it would not be compatible with a belief that “labor is entitled to all it creates”. And stating it as matter of fact rather than as an opinion is kind of lame

When corporations band together to extract higher profits we penalize them, same logic should apply to labor unions.

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#79

Post by hindsightbias » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

sfink wrote: post #44

jayd16 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget child labor. The market demands child labor.

I probably shouldn't say this here, but I'm a bit confused about child labor. The phrase brings to mind images of a crowd of muddy children sewing cheap shirts long after dark, and I strongly agree with regulations to prohibit that. At the same time, why is it a problem for children to work? I grew up helping my dad out in his job as a handyman. [To be clear, this is legal and not what I'm arguing about.] Not every p…

Perhaps a curricula on small electronic component repair. Starting with iPhones. Of course, they’ll need plenty of lab experience - say 4 hours a day?

Re: Thousands of Google’s cafeteria workers have unionized

#80

Post by greatscott404 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

shantly wrote: post #77

greatscott404 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm opposed to throwing the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

Sure, then we can keep corporations around as long as we balance their government-enabled incredible labor rate negotiating position with something comparably effective for workers.

We have that it's called "supply and demand".