How a preventable disaster killed six marines
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How a preventable disaster killed six marines
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Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#2Military family here. My step-brother flies F/A-18’s in the Navy (not exactly the same spec as Marine Hornets but shares many parts), so that’s extra concerning. This is sad and understandable based on how the MIC works. Tens of trillions spent on crap; and chickenshit CO’s blame the victims (soldiers) and coverup incompetence and gross negligence rather than exhibiting leadership, taking responsibility and learning lessons. Don’t join up because your life isn’t worth a damn to pig generals, politicians and corporate schmucks.
PS: A roommate of mine in college was a Marine Herc Navigator MOS, for KC-130 and C-130. They would frequently get on the plane drunk from the night before but be expected to function. Squad meetings? At the bar, with mandatory alcohol. He bemoaned the V-22 Osprey as an overpriced death-trap, which it definitely was, in the beginning. I think many military cultures needs to strongly encourage less binge alcoholic consumption for operational effectiveness and because more personnel end up alcoholic, like my grandfather, for one (who was a paratrooper and later an AP (MP)).
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#3I'm not really into military doctrine, but why not just leave all the flying stuff to the Air Force or maybe specialized parts of the Navy? When you look up US air units/forces, there is a bunch of stuff left to the national guards, marines etc. and flying is obviously something to be taken seriously. And it looks like they are more likely to screw it up or take it less seriously.
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#4Military family here. My step-brother flies F/A-18’s in the Navy (not exactly the same spec as Marine Hornets but shares many parts), so that’s extra concerning. This is sad and understandable based on how the MIC works. Tens of trillions spent on crap; and chickenshit CO’s blame the victims (soldiers) and coverup incompetence and gross negligence rather than exhibiting leadership, taking responsibility and learning…
Yeah my experience in the Marines resonates with this a lot. So many training meetings about how drinking and driving was bad, followed by a meetup at the bar. Even during the presentations the officers in charge would joke about it. None of it was ever taken seriously. The best example of double-talk I have in real life. Way they would talk about "partying in Okinawa" was always creepy when you consider the Marines' history there.
Not blaming anyone specifically of course. I feel for anyone who feels like they need to drink to get through their days. Just think it's also a good example of CO's talking big but meaning nothing, and that attitude trickles all the way down the chain.
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#5I'm not really into military doctrine, but why not just leave all the flying stuff to the Air Force or maybe specialized parts of the Navy? When you look up US air units/forces, there is a bunch of stuff left to the national guards, marines etc. and flying is obviously something to be taken seriously. And it looks like they are more likely to screw it up or take it less seriously.
The various forces do different things in the air. I'm not super knowledgeable about this, so someone might have more details.
Air Force is general flight missions. They tend towards support and recon.
Navy is focused on carrier support and sea missions.
Marines are focused on CAS and both land and sea missions. Lot of helicopters as well.
So each branch takes different responsibilities. I don't think this is an issue of Marines not being good enough to fly, as there are very talented Marine pilots around the world. Instead, these Marines weren't being given the resources and training they needed, and were being ignored by the higher chain. The argument that Marines don't take things as seriously is a little ridiculous.
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#6I'm not really into military doctrine, but why not just leave all the flying stuff to the Air Force or maybe specialized parts of the Navy? When you look up US air units/forces, there is a bunch of stuff left to the national guards, marines etc. and flying is obviously something to be taken seriously. And it looks like they are more likely to screw it up or take it less seriously.
The various forces do different things in the air. I'm not super knowledgeable about this, so someone might have more details. Air Force is general flight missions. They tend towards support and recon. Navy is focused on carrier support and sea missions. Marines are focused on CAS and both land and sea missions. Lot of helicopters as well. So each branch takes different responsibilities. I don't think this is an issu…
CAS = close air support?
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#7Earlier quoted context omitted.
The various forces do different things in the air. I'm not super knowledgeable about this, so someone might have more details. Air Force is general flight missions. They tend towards support and recon. Navy is focused on carrier support and sea missions. Marines are focused on CAS and both land and sea missions. Lot of helicopters as well. So each branch takes different responsibilities. I don't think this is an issu…
CAS = close air support?
Correct.
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#8Military family here. My step-brother flies F/A-18’s in the Navy (not exactly the same spec as Marine Hornets but shares many parts), so that’s extra concerning. This is sad and understandable based on how the MIC works. Tens of trillions spent on crap; and chickenshit CO’s blame the victims (soldiers) and coverup incompetence and gross negligence rather than exhibiting leadership, taking responsibility and learning…
Yeah my experience in the Marines resonates with this a lot. So many training meetings about how drinking and driving was bad, followed by a meetup at the bar. Even during the presentations the officers in charge would joke about it. None of it was ever taken seriously. The best example of double-talk I have in real life. Way they would talk about "partying in Okinawa" was always creepy when you consider the Marines'…
And your problem is here ?
If the meeting attendees where not driving after the meeting, I don't see the problem with social drinking and bonding.
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#9I'm not really into military doctrine, but why not just leave all the flying stuff to the Air Force or maybe specialized parts of the Navy? When you look up US air units/forces, there is a bunch of stuff left to the national guards, marines etc. and flying is obviously something to be taken seriously. And it looks like they are more likely to screw it up or take it less seriously.
> why not just leave all the flying stuff to the Air Force or maybe specialized parts of the Navy?
The priorities aka politics of each military branch are different.
Canonical example: At Guadalcanal in WW2, the Navy was supposed to land supplies and support the Marines, but when the Japanese Navy showed up, the US Navy weighed anchor and left - with most supplies still aboard. The Marines are still mad about that 75 years later.
In more recent times, the problem is that the Air Force doesn't want to fly low and risk AF pilots - ie. provide CAS. And the F35 is the worst at CAS - high, fast and expensive with no loiter time.
Re: How a preventable disaster killed six marines
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah my experience in the Marines resonates with this a lot. So many training meetings about how drinking and driving was bad, followed by a meetup at the bar. Even during the presentations the officers in charge would joke about it. None of it was ever taken seriously. The best example of double-talk I have in real life. Way they would talk about "partying in Okinawa" was always creepy when you consider the Marines'…
And your problem is here ? If the meeting attendees where not driving after the meeting, I don't see the problem with social drinking and bonding.
Cause that "social drinking and bonding" was always binge drinking.