Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign • Hacker News Board

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#51

Post by atr_gz » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 4:45 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #43

atr_gz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the core of the issue more that Huawei defrauded some US banks by promising not to use their money to do business with Iran, then went ahead and did it anyways, leading to the banks in question being fined by the US? Your characterization seems a bit misleading.

That is what the US wants the core of the issue to be. The actual core of the issue isn't automatically set because the US has a preference. It seems completely reasonable that the Chinese would see a different core issue related to the US throwing their weight around. This isn't a case that is being put through the Chinese court system. That suggests that the Chinese government doesn't see a problem with Huawei's ac…

That doesn’t make sense to me. Of course if you do business with the US you are subject to US law. And if you travel to somewhere with an extradition treaty with the US, well, it shouldn’t be hard to guess what will happen. If I defrauded a Chinese bank I would expect to be arrested if I traveled somewhere with extradition to China.

What do you mean about the US banks having a legal say? The government is the one doing the prosecuting.

And if they were lied to, then how would they know that their money would be used to violate sanctions? Are you saying that they should have known that Huawei was lying, therefore it’s their own fault? Maybe that’s the case, but it doesn’t have any bearing on whether a crime was committed.

Edit: And that doesn’t change the fact that your original comment was highly misleading. I’m sure you can come up with some argument against the US position, but you should have done that in the first place instead of posting a strawman.

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#52

Post by neya » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 4:56 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #31

neya wrote: post #6

I live in a Chinese dominated country. I can tell you this is because of the absurd nationalistic view that the Chinese hold. For example, I know atleast 5 co-workers who sold their iPhones to get a Huawei when the sanction was made. Part of the reason was Huawei phones' prices (even new ones) drastically dropped when the announcement of no more Android support was made, so these guys (and girls) got it at a super go…

> because of the absurd nationalistic view that the Chinese hold Nothing absurd about it. The US government is trying to coerce the Chinese government. Great time for them to feel nationalistic. > I tried to understand why, so I threw many arguments at them such as Huawei was actually caught sending data back to 3rd party servers in China and I even tried explaining maybe the sanction is on them because they broke th…

My understanding is this - the core of the argument is that a profit making entity from China violated a foreign law in a foreign land. And people were getting nationalistic about it without understanding that an agreement means you agreed on something (in this case, not to do something) and violating that has consequences as per foreign law because the company is operating in a foreign land that isn't their own.

For example, if some company from my country violated US (or wherever they operated) law and got penalized for that (and they have been in the past, actually), I wouldn't be like "screw the US! I must support my country!!". I would just think "Oh, probably they shouldn't have done that" and move on. All I'm saying is it's surprising to me to see this kind of nationalistic knee-jerk reaction en masse. I have never witnessed it personally until now, so I shared my mere observation.

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#53

Post by Iwan-Zotow » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 4:58 AM UTC

throwaway1997 wrote: post #48

Iwan-Zotow wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan

Taiwan promotes nationalism of its own nation, although it's nowhere near as hardline as the mainland.

> Taiwan promotes nationalism of its own nation

Huh?

Kuomintang for a long time considered themselves a "tru Chinese", carriers of the spirit of the Chinese nation (as opposd to those godless commies).

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#54

Post by Iwan-Zotow » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 4:59 AM UTC

throwaway1997 wrote: post #49

Iwan-Zotow wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTFY Americans could be patriotic (GOOD!) Chinese could only be nationalistic (BAD!)

Americans can safely criticise and scrutinise their own government in most cases.

not sure how it is related to the situation on hands

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#55

Post by atlasunshrugged » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 5:08 AM UTC

trhway wrote: post #47

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering whether it would be a benefit for them to be knocked by the American govt in some places. I guessed for sure in the ME but I'm a bit surprised about India, I would have figured they would be more on the US side. Or is it that they just benefited from increased name recognition rather than name recognition tied to being harried by the US

>but I'm a bit surprised about India, I would have figured they would be more on the US side. giving US support of Pakistan? :) While China, despite potentially having points of contention with India, seems to have at least for now decided to not angry up the Indian tiger.

The U.S. gives support to lots of people, including India. I wouldn't think that'd be that big a deal. Plus, the US aid to Pakistan is pretty unwilling and not because we support them over India but because we need them to not give terrorists shelter (more than they already do I guess)

"The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) compiled and published a data in 2015 indicating that from the period 1946-2012, India has been the recipient of highest aid from United States. The amount of economic aid, adjusted to inflation then, was reported to be USD 65.1 billion"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_India

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#56

Post by roenxi » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

atr_gz wrote: post #51

roenxi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what the US wants the core of the issue to be. The actual core of the issue isn't automatically set because the US has a preference. It seems completely reasonable that the Chinese would see a different core issue related to the US throwing their weight around. This isn't a case that is being put through the Chinese court system. That suggests that the Chinese government doesn't see a problem with Huawei's ac…

That doesn’t make sense to me. Of course if you do business with the US you are subject to US law. And if you travel to somewhere with an extradition treaty with the US, well, it shouldn’t be hard to guess what will happen. If I defrauded a Chinese bank I would expect to be arrested if I traveled somewhere with extradition to China. What do you mean about the US banks having a legal say? The government is the one doi…

> If I defrauded a Chinese bank I would expect to be arrested if I traveled somewhere with extradition to China.

Yes, but if the charge was that you were engaged in trade with Taiwan (or recognising Taiwan as an independent state) that would be equally outrageous.

> What do you mean about the US banks having a legal say? The government is the one doing the prosecuting.

I must have misunderstood what you said. I thought the banks in the US being fined was relevant.

> Are you saying that they should have known that Huawei was lying, therefore it’s their own fault?

Pretty much. Joys of capitalism. If this sort of thing is legal in the place where Huawei is sourcing their management from then they should have expected it. If somebody enters into an unenforceable contract and the other party starts laughing and ignoring it, that is on the parties involved.

> Maybe that’s the case, but it doesn’t have any bearing on whether a crime was committed.

It totally does have a bearing. America doesn't get to decide what a crime is for Chinese companies. The US can choose to hinder business between US companies and Chinese companies, can choose to restrict Chinese corporate activity on US soil and can negotiate for whatever they like. But grabbing people on a connecting flight as the opening play is going to stir up the nationalists for good reasons.

> Edit: And that doesn’t change the fact that your original comment was highly misleading. I’m sure you can come up with some argument against the US position, but you should have done that in the first place instead of posting a strawman.

US law is not some natural law of the world, and a US judge making a ruling is something that only US citizens should have to knuckle under and accept. If someone from China gets unhappy that suddenly their business leaders are being messed with on the orders of a US judge then it is totally understandable.

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#57

Post by roenxi » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 5:29 AM UTC

neya wrote: post #52

roenxi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because of the absurd nationalistic view that the Chinese hold Nothing absurd about it. The US government is trying to coerce the Chinese government. Great time for them to feel nationalistic. > I tried to understand why, so I threw many arguments at them such as Huawei was actually caught sending data back to 3rd party servers in China and I even tried explaining maybe the sanction is on them because they broke th…

My understanding is this - the core of the argument is that a profit making entity from China violated a foreign law in a foreign land. And people were getting nationalistic about it without understanding that an agreement means you agreed on something (in this case, not to do something) and violating that has consequences as per foreign law because the company is operating in a foreign land that isn't their own. For…

Huawei isn't being penalised though; this is a direct charge against Meng. The US doesn't need the CFO to be in the courtroom to press charges against Huawei. The focus is a little different; this is much more personal.

If it were just a charge against Huawei then yeah, a nationalistic response would be a little silly.

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#58

Post by throwaway1997 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 5:36 AM UTC

Iwan-Zotow wrote: post #54

throwaway1997 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans can safely criticise and scrutinise their own government in most cases.

not sure how it is related to the situation on hands

In USA the patriotism is a choice, in China it's a requirement

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#59

Post by trhway » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #55

trhway wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but I'm a bit surprised about India, I would have figured they would be more on the US side. giving US support of Pakistan? :) While China, despite potentially having points of contention with India, seems to have at least for now decided to not angry up the Indian tiger.

The U.S. gives support to lots of people, including India. I wouldn't think that'd be that big a deal. Plus, the US aid to Pakistan is pretty unwilling and not because we support them over India but because we need them to not give terrorists shelter (more than they already do I guess) "The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) compiled and published a data in 2015 indicating that from the period…

Pakistan has been getting on a scale of $1B/year during the last couple decades at least. Pakistan population is 1/6th of India.

Re: Huawei’s Revenue Hits Record $122B in 2019 Despite U.S. Campaign

#60

Post by throwaway1997 » Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 6:15 AM UTC

Iwan-Zotow wrote: post #53

throwaway1997 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan promotes nationalism of its own nation, although it's nowhere near as hardline as the mainland.

> Taiwan promotes nationalism of its own nation Huh? Kuomintang for a long time considered themselves a "tru Chinese", carriers of the spirit of the Chinese nation (as opposd to those godless commies).

Regardless of your political views, Taiwan is a different China from mainland China. There are a lot of initiatives to promote a Taiwanese identity such as MIT (Made in Taiwan) and Taiwanization.