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Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

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Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#61

Post by ZhuanXia »

mlyle wrote: post #58
ZhuanXia wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the enriched population does not help as high IQ is not caused by rare variants. Rather it is the proportion of common variants that increase IQ to common variants that decrease it. This is why we need millions of samples.

> the enriched population does not help as high IQ is not caused by rare variants. The enriched population tends to have a higher population of these common variants. Saying it "does not help" is kinda silly-- the authors and reviewers behind this Nature MP pub disagree with you, as do I ;) In the end, we have small randomized sample studies directly on IQ; enriched case-controlled studies like this one; and large st…

I suppose I should have said it does not help much. You are right; it does help.

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#62

Post by nitrogen »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47
thiagoharry wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in America imigrants are put in concentration camps and desperated poor people are allowed to sell their blood 2 times a week. But it doesn't mean that if a scientist does that kind of unethical experiment, he wouldn't be put in jail.

I don’t think immigrants in detainment camps are allowed to sell their blood at all, let alone 2 times a week.

> poor people are allowed to sell their blood 2 times a week.

Plasma "donation" is paid in the US.

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#63

Post by buboard »

hutzlibu wrote: post #23
ZhuanXia wrote: post #10

Interesting. I still roll to disbelieve on China shunning human enhancement. The gains are just too great, the fruit too low hanging. Several standard deviation increases in polygenic traits are on the table, including the most important economic trait, intellectual ability: https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection Given China’s almost unique state capacity to think long term, history of eugenic policies in sport, an i…

Well, if human gene editing really would work, than china (and others) would not only select for intellect, but also for obedience. Which is scary. Apart from that I do believe, that in the future human gene editing makes sense. Once it is actually understood. (until then volunteers are allright with me, but experimenting with babys ... is a bit off) Because we are successfully eliminating natural selection in variou…

> Once it is actually understood.

This will probably happen in the distant future. Most of the genetic research this decade will be driven by national competition. it's an arms race

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#64

Post by buboard »

420basteit wrote: post #46
ZhuanXia wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I am a little worried about genetic engineering in the very very long term, as it seems to make eusocial organization possible, which I find pretty abhorrent. In the short term though, it seems like a good idea. Regardless, in a multipolar world we don’t have much choice in the matter.

Why do you find eusociality abhorrent?

genetically coded conformism is against freedom

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#65

Post by buboard »

ZhuanXia wrote: post #18
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow those are optimistic numbers. Considering we have NO idea what genes select for most features (if any).

We don’t need the causal variants for embryo selection, just the predictive variants. We have this for height now. The only reason we don’t have this for IQ now is everyone doing GWAS studies are too chicken to put an IQ test in with their other measures. As the cost of a sequence declines, this will not last. Obviously, this is not an issue if there is state involvement.

He targeted CCR5 which does have some (pretty striking) effect in mouse learning and synaptic turnover in particular. He was aware of that study. https://elifesciences.org/articles/20985

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#66

Post by buboard »

ZhuanXia wrote: post #10

Interesting. I still roll to disbelieve on China shunning human enhancement. The gains are just too great, the fruit too low hanging. Several standard deviation increases in polygenic traits are on the table, including the most important economic trait, intellectual ability: https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection Given China’s almost unique state capacity to think long term, history of eugenic policies in sport, an i…

> still roll to disbelieve on China

It's either for show, or perhaps to punish/keep him for publicizing the national superhuman program

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#67

Post by imtringued »

vorpalhex wrote: post #51
thiagoharry wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in America imigrants are put in concentration camps and desperated poor people are allowed to sell their blood 2 times a week. But it doesn't mean that if a scientist does that kind of unethical experiment, he wouldn't be put in jail.

Comparing an immigration detention facility to a concentration camp shows a distinct lack of understanding of what either one is.

Actually you're the one who isn't understanding that there is no meaningful difference. Concentration camps are just worse than usual prisons. The biggest difference isn't the institution, it's who is selected to be sent to the camp and that they can never leave.

People in prisons or concentration camps often have to work against their will. This is an accepted form of slavery in our society. The imprisoned often have no enforced rights. A ward can just search your room, take your property and you can't do anything against them. They are allowed to use force to make you obey. Who is going to protect you? The police?

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#68

Post by pcrh »

ZhuanXia wrote: post #60
pcrh wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you perhaps misunderstand the study's conclusions (and that of most GWAS on intelligence). They conclude that high IQ (>170) is mostly not caused by genetic variants.

>They conclude that high IQ (>170) is mostly not caused by genetic variants. The abstract does not mention that; they claim: "This study shows the utility of extreme trait selection for genetic study of intelligence and suggests that extremely high intelligence is continuous genetically with normal-range intelligence in the population." I don't think anyone would seriously claim that high IQ is mostly not caused by g…

The full text is available here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5987166/

In the conclusions section they state:

>Focusing on the core 4-test g measure, we think that accounting for 1.6% of the variance of intelligence is exciting for several reasons. First, this effect size is greater than the effect sizes from previous GWA studies of the normal range of intelligence.45 The effect size of 1.6% represents >2.5% of the heritable variance of intelligence, which is comparable to the most robust effect sizes in behavioural research.46

That they are "excited" to account for at best 2.5% of high IQ through genetics suggests that genetics is not a large contributor to high intelligence.

Previous studies demonstrating high heritability of IQ did not discriminate between genetic inheritance and social/cultural/environmental inheritance. Clearly, the latter are more significant contributors than is genetics.

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#69

Post by seanmcdirmid »

nitrogen wrote: post #62
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think immigrants in detainment camps are allowed to sell their blood at all, let alone 2 times a week.

> poor people are allowed to sell their blood 2 times a week. Plasma "donation" is paid in the US.

Yes, but incarcerated persons are not allowed to participate.

Re: Chinese scientist who edited twin babies' genes jailed for 3 years

#70

Post by imtringued »

baybal2 wrote: post #6
fasicle wrote: post #3

It will be interesting to see if the babies grow up with any side affects from the editing. DNA is hugely complex and changing some elements of it could easily effect other parts (I imagine).

Very unlikely. For a conception happening from people around 30 years, they will be passing 20 to 30 thousand DNA mutations to their offspring, and around 100-150 genetic mutations. Statistically cas9 is barely worse than just be born to a late parent.

It's also very unlikely to be born with down syndrome. It still happens.
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