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Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

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Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#91

Post by trezor »

thisisblurry wrote: post #27
code_duck wrote: post #21

Sounds like the main story is that they're redefining what a major version number means a la Chrome. Chrome's numbers are not in the same scale as FF and IE too, of course. Users can't tell the difference between Chrome 6 and 7 like one can distinguish FF 2 and 3, or IE 6 and 7. I wonder, though, if Google was just trying to catch IE in version number with Chrome and once it's at 10, they'll stop increasing it so rap…

I doubt that the Chromium authors are concerned about trying to catch IE by having a larger version number. Their development calendar ( https://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/developers/calen... ) looks as though they have a rigid two-month schedule per version number. I myself am already running version 11 (screenshot: http://jhn.me/4RYO ) via their nightly builds.

I guess at this point version 9 looks OK. You have MSIE 9, Opera 10 etc and we've grown accustomed to those. It's up there at the same level and not particularly out of place.

Now look back: the public stable release of Chrome 1 was on 11 December 2008. That's roughly 5 up per year. In another year it will be 15 and then 20. After a while it will start looking silly (like it did with MS Office) and I don't think the question is if they will stop with this aggressive version-numbering, but when.

They now have beaten IE to the release of version 9, they will beat Opera for version 11. I'm guessing once they have beaten all the other browsers they will stop and get back to point-releases like everyone else.

But not until they are ahead of the curve and say "Your browser only goes to 9 or 10? My browser goes to version 11!". In lack of better words: Pointless or not, I'm guessing they want their browser to be the one which goes to 11, Spinaltap style.

The number is all a mind-trick and you have to be a fool not to see the game being played here.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#92

Post by tomkarlo »

Padraig wrote: post #71
mbrubeck wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclosure: I work for Mozilla.) Anthony Laforge, the Google program manager in charge of Chrome releases, was kind enough to give a talk at Mozilla's all-hands meeting in December. He gave a version of this presentation: http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/11/google-chrome-release-cycle... Each Chrome release is in development for 12 weeks. There are always two 12-week cycles in progress at once, staggered by 6 weeks. So…

You can have a fast internal development cycle without devaluing the established concept of major version numbers. I don't appreciate this because I make money from software. To me, a new major version number is: a) an indication that there have been major changes. It's not something that increments every 12 weeks. b) something most people reasonably expect to pay for. I know Mozilla isn't first with this approach. I…

Arguably, the concept that ties major releases with major purchases is old and broken. It discourages companies from making major updates to software between such releases, as it will actually make it harder for them to make new revenue off the next major release. So you get point releases that are mostly minor bug fixes, and then a huge release every year or two that the maker hopes will squeeze you into opening your wallet, even if you're mostly happy with the last release.

Web apps are clearly going to break this version treadmill. Even if you're downloading a package to the desktop, modeling software more as a service - you pay for the right to use software for a period including all updates, rather than for a perpetual license that in reality will expire and need to be re-purchased as soon as the next major version hits.

Pay as you go is better for both users and developers. It means you can charge less up front, spend less on marketing (since the cost of trialing the software drops) and focus on delivering the _best_ experience to all your users rather than denying some features to existing customers in order to create a future revenue event.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#94

Post by Silhouette »

nitrogen wrote: post #85
Silhouette wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind faster releases if they're doing things we traditionally associated with minor version numbers, such as performance improvements or slightly UI tweaks. I really hope they don't change any rendering components at the same pace, though. I already have to strike any contractual obligation to test/support Chrome in commercial web development projects, because it's a moving target and Google do release breaki…

Can you give some examples of HTML/CSS-compliant layouts or layout features that were broken by changes in Chrome or Firefox?

Please see my other post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2189846

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#95

Post by alanh »

nitrogen wrote: post #85
Silhouette wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind faster releases if they're doing things we traditionally associated with minor version numbers, such as performance improvements or slightly UI tweaks. I really hope they don't change any rendering components at the same pace, though. I already have to strike any contractual obligation to test/support Chrome in commercial web development projects, because it's a moving target and Google do release breaki…

Can you give some examples of HTML/CSS-compliant layouts or layout features that were broken by changes in Chrome or Firefox?

H.264 is scheduled to be broken in Chrome in exactly 6 weeks (given Chrome 9 came out this week)

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#96

Post by alanh »

Silhouette wrote: post #77
eli wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome auto-updates and generally always looks the same. I can't imagine why anyone -- users or developers -- would care what version number it's up to.

> I can't imagine why anyone -- users or developers -- would care what version number it's up to. One reason is that while Chrome's UI may look much the same, its behaviour often changes significantly, and not always for the better. They broke CSS3 rounded corners just as web designers were starting to use them instead of graphics. They made a political decision to remove H.264 support just as the HTML5 video tag was…

Can you elaborate on broken rounded corners? They seem to work just fine for me, always have.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#97

Post by Silhouette »

alanh wrote: post #96
Silhouette wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't imagine why anyone -- users or developers -- would care what version number it's up to. One reason is that while Chrome's UI may look much the same, its behaviour often changes significantly, and not always for the better. They broke CSS3 rounded corners just as web designers were starting to use them instead of graphics. They made a political decision to remove H.264 support just as the HTML5 video tag was…

Can you elaborate on broken rounded corners? They seem to work just fine for me, always have.

If you search the Chromium bug database under "rounded corners", you'll find various issues related to poor antialiasing or worse, with screenshots attached.

Basically, rounded corners weren't rendering smoothly, and if there was a border applied then you could even get the wrong colours showing, which looked awful.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#99

Post by thristian »

nitrogen wrote: post #85
Silhouette wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind faster releases if they're doing things we traditionally associated with minor version numbers, such as performance improvements or slightly UI tweaks. I really hope they don't change any rendering components at the same pace, though. I already have to strike any contractual obligation to test/support Chrome in commercial web development projects, because it's a moving target and Google do release breaki…

Can you give some examples of HTML/CSS-compliant layouts or layout features that were broken by changes in Chrome or Firefox?

Recently I worked on a website with a lot of forms, and decided to use HTML5 form validation to make my life easier, with a JS fallback for older browsers. It turns out that Webkit added support for HTML5 form validation, then found a problem, so they switched off the implementation without switching off the exposed API. So every JS fallback that tests for the presence of the HTML5 methods on form elements will assume that HTML5 form validation is implemented, and leave the validation up to the browser... which doesn't actually do it at all.

That means server-side validation, which of course one needs to do anyway. But it's not to hard to imagine somebody making a site during the brief window when Chrome supported HTML5 form validation, and then discovering their site broken in Chrome a few months later.

Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011

#100

Post by Ygor »

true_religion wrote: post #63
christonog wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, can you possibly expound on how you got that message? Does it mean web apps are necessarily better than developing for browsers via extensions?

Probably because Mozilla explicitly said their focus would be on web apps, particularly javascript improvements.

Yes, that too. But even if not for the explicit mention - rapid development of a certain platform is usually a sign of a strong and lasting ecosystem of applications for that platform. And browsers are certainly an important component of the web platform.
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