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Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

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Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#41
post #40

You'd do well to wear a suit to any job interview. Programmer or not, startup or not, walking into an interview in a suit conveys a sense of professionalism. First impressions are hard to change. So start off well. Also, I'd take the advice of those who who say "Wear sandals and a t-shirt" with a grain of salt - I suspect that the majority of people who give that advice are not (and haven't ever been) in a position t…

You're assuming that a suit always provides a good impression. That's not automatic, especially if you're interviewing at a small, casual company that is trying to maintain a specific kind of casual, fun work culture. Like, say...a startup.

Work for a startup. Second startup actually, both successful. Wore a suit to both interviews. Results paint a pretty clear picture.

Even companies looking to maintain a casual, fun work culture should appreciate their candidates attempting to present themselves in a professional way. If an interviewer casts someone in a negative light because they wore a suit... I'll go out on a limb and risk getting flamed by saying that this person probably shouldn't be responsible for hiring in the first place.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#42
post #14

I guess it depends on the job, but I can't stand people in suits. It's so obsolete now. That kind of tired attention to surface conformity only encourages the same old thinking that is responsible for everything sucking. Wear what is comfortable and looks decent. The sooner the puritanical idea that you have to dress yourself in that ridiculous, uncomfortable costume and prance around like some peacock samurai in ful…

You can't stand people in suits? Why do you even care?

Let actions speak rather than clothes. I've known programmers who wore fastidiously cut suits and programmers who wore birks and cutoffs. Both clothing classifications produced fast, capable, flexible programmers who could think on their feet, and both classes also produced morons who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag.

Look beyond the surface and you will end up hiring a much higher quality programmer.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#43
The only universal rule is that there is no universal rule...

Companies, at any stage, are made up of a (semi)random collection of individuals. You can hardly predict their expectations, likes, dislikes, and expectations accurately.

Dress-code wise, I would say dress in whatever YOU feel most comfortable in. When in doubt err on the side of over-dressing, but for almost any "hacker" type role you would never go beyond a sport-coat (possibly with nice jeans and a dress shirt). As someone who has interviewed many people I would say that one thing that seems to negatively affect the dynamics of the interview is when you can tell the person is just not comfortable (and therefore not themself).

Along the lines of not being able to predict how people view your CV, I personally would rather see blank space on a resume instead of blather about what you did in high school or college, which is almost never relevant to what I am interested in. I also personally don't like people who send the followup emails of "It was such a great interview I can totally see myself making a huge contriblahblahblah". Save it, I get enough air-filled emails already, I don't need yours.

Despite what many people might say, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Wear what you want, and handle the process (cover letter, resume, follow-up) however you feel is most appropriate, and iterate rapidly over the feedback (or lack thereof) to adjust your approach.

Personally, I like a brief 2-3 paragraph high-level cover letter that is targeted to the specific job (matches your skills to my requirements) and a resume that is readable and underscores key accomplishments. Dress decent, no matter what position you're interviewing for (if you're at a startup you might have to present to a board or potential customer one day. Having a "nice" set of clothes is a good sign of preparedness, IMO).

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#44
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for." Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews. For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're…

I'd rather hire someone who is comfortable in any situation (mechanics clothes or business suit) than a rigid smartass who won't change they way he or she dresses no matter what...

I would always dress "professionally" because I do not know what the guy on the other side is going to think. I don't want the start of the interview to be the end of it. When I talk to the interviewer I can know if that person is someone I can be working with, I always ask what the dress code is like and I assure you it makes no difference.

One company was 100% casual (don't wear a miniskirt and you are fine). The company was the biggest POS to work for.

Another company is business casual (occasionally they don't mind me wearing a t-shirt and jeans) and it is is just a pleasure to work at this one.

Edit: I actually like wearing business casual, very comfortable cloths.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#45
post #8
post #2

In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree. As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a ma…

"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for." Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews. For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're…

The job I would like to have required me sitting around in my underwear and possibly a shirt. Joking aside, I don't agree with the dress like the job you want at all. It's important to convy professionalism. When you go to a wedding do you wear shorts and a tshirt because its comfortable? No, you want to look the part. A job is no different. I think its better to be over dressed then under dressed.

I work for a super casual company now. I wear a t-shirt and jeans to work every day. They actually asked me on my interview why I was wearing a suit. As soon as I spoke, they could tell I wasnt a stuck up stiff "suit". I showed some personality, smiled and laughed a bit. On the other hand I have seen people come through here in hoodies who get the job. But I would personally never wear anything less than a suit to an interview.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#46
Most of the advice here is bad, IMO. It reminds me of the 'build it and they will come-- marketing, messaging, and salesmanship doesn't matter" advice you see from a lot of neophyte product developers.

Find out who you're interviewing with and learn about the company. Founded by a hacker or MBA? Are they casual at work or no? Do they like golf or D&D? A 20 person company should be quite google-able-- learn about your audience. Hell, find an excuse to drop by and look around.

A bit of research and salesmanship isn't a bad thing. You can call something a "steak" or you can call it a "muscle tissue sample from a castrated bull" (apologies to Robert Heinlein) -- which sounds better to you? There are great studies that indicate that the more you look like a person, the more they'll trust you. You don't have to be totally fake, but you can choose wisely within your wardrobe.

In terms of CV and cover letter, again-- do the research. If the reader has an MBA, err on the side of a bit more traditional. If he/she is an anthropology school dropout whose blog is vulgar and fun, be a bit more casual.

And-- what's wrong with asking questions? Call and say, "the places I'm considering positions at run the gamut between casual and formal in terms of attire. What's your company like on that front? If I wear slacks and a dress shirt to the interview, am I going to be the sharpest dressed person in the office?"

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#47
In the last job I applied for they dismissed a candidate because he showed up in tshirt and jeans.

In a previous job I applied for (electricians helper) they wouldn't hire you if you applied in a suit.

I believe in both jobs business casual was fine. It really depends on the interviewers though.

If I were interviewing you and you weren't wearing business casual I might ask why, but that's me. The reason I would ask why is it will give me insight to your personality, and circumstances. You might be having a tough break, you might enjoy wearing suits, or you might think appearances don't matter.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#48
post #37
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What industry are you in? If you're in banking, sure, but if you're in software I hope you clearly communicate this to interviewees.

More importantly we're in London, England - not the West Coast :-) There are a lot of ex-City people here, which may be where the expectation comes from, but even so...

> More importantly we're in London, England - not the West Coast :-)

That explains everything.

I had a friend who actually got turned down for a management position for wearing a suit to an interview (they thought he was "too formal" for the job). PayPal, I believe.

I rock the Silicon Valley Casual for interviews-- jeans and an untucked button-down shirt for consulting gigs (and employee-jobs that I already know I want).

If it's a really creamy consulting gig for a large company, I might even make it slacks, semi-dress shoes, and untucked button down. Regrettably I don't have the complexion for khakis, since blue button-down, brown semi-dress shoes and khaki slacks [with cell phone on a belt clip] appears to be the uniform of choice around here large boring companies that think they're casual.

For startup interviews, I will wear a funny t-shirt, often involving pirates.

You will note that I never overdress beyond these levels (for an interview), as the casual dress is part of my filter against stupid, boring companies.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#49
Your cover letter is your introductory email. (You're not attaching a PDF or anything, are you?) It should be conversational, well-edited, and concise, but should give the reader some reason to continue on to the resume.

As for when to start culling old info from your resume: I think you have the right idea in thinking that you should stick to those points that are directly relevant to the position. Padding your experiences and skills with high school activities may help when you're fresh out of school and have little or no professional background to reference, but if you've had even one full-time job in the industry, drop the kid stuff.

I haven't been on the interviewee side in a while, but from the interviewer POV, I personally like to see that applicants have made an effort to anticipate the office culture and dress appropriately. Seeing someone in a suit + tie when interviewing in a room full of people wearing T-shirts suggests to me that perhaps they aren't great at prediction based on incomplete information, and instead chose to "play it safe." That can be a desirable attribute in some positions, but it doesn't speak well of their ability to empathize.

If you want to find out whether you're going to get dinged for not going formal with your interview attire, do some research. Check the 'About Us' or 'Staff' page on the company website, or check out staff members' blogs and Flickr photos. Maybe on of the senior staff have presented at a conference recently, or podcasts from their office?

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#50
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for." Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews. For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're…

> "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life." That puts into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I defiantly wear dress pants and expensive shirts (+ suit and tie for interviews) even when working at a tech startup with 20-somethings in (carefully chosen) worn jeans and t-shirts. If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthet…

> If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?

Because they do matter. The function of any level or style of dress at an interview is to mark you as part of the Right Group. This holds true even when the interviewers don't realize that they're unconsciously doing it.

Overdressing for an interview at some companies can put you in the Wrong Group just as surely as underdressing will at others.

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