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36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

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Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#41

Post by scurvy »

Tomte wrote: post #35
eqvinox wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German law covers this in §32 StGB ("emergency defense"), which includes emergency assistance. If people were reasonably convinced that he was threatening others, they're done & out clear. P.S.: in German law, it's actually a crime to _not_ render assistance to others in danger - StGB §323c ("failure to render assistance")

German law has extraordinary self-defense statutes, both civil and criminal. The following applies to criminal self-defense: Any ongoing[1] illegal attack on any legal right may be warded off using force, including insults (that's an attack against personal honor). The force does not have to be proportional, only necessary (it must not be more severe than another one that would lead to success) and effective (it must…

I'd guess there's a bar to meet here on immediate danger, and my guess it wasn't here?

Uninvited guest shows up to the party, you should call the police.

Seems like there were 0 cool heads and everyone involved is guilty of something.

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#42

Post by Tomte »

glogla wrote: post #40
Tomte wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German law has extraordinary self-defense statutes, both civil and criminal. The following applies to criminal self-defense: Any ongoing[1] illegal attack on any legal right may be warded off using force, including insults (that's an attack against personal honor). The force does not have to be proportional, only necessary (it must not be more severe than another one that would lead to success) and effective (it must…

We have the same setup! So this is where our (Czech) lawmakers got it from. I thought it was a bit too smart for them! Thanks for the fascinating explanation.

That was the very short version, of course. The real legal analysis of self-defense is fascinating, but complex. Just take a look at the table of contents in https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notwehr_(Deutschland)

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#43

Post by krapp »

scurvy wrote: post #38
eqvinox wrote: post #9

Yeah, dude, posting a video of you getting kicked out primarily hints that you were being an idiot of some kind. Occam's razor, simplest explanation and whatnot. Feel free and try to elaborate / prove otherwise. Also, FYI, CCC team has "Hausrecht" and if they tell you to leave you legally need to leave and they're well within rights to evict you.

IANAL, but you can't physically eject someone from a space in most civilized countries even if they're doing something wrong. Call the polizei/police. There are exceptions for immediate threat to life, but you can't go wild and start kicking and punching someone for trespassing. That's assault and the video footage is possible evidence that could lead to charges. I was a bouncer in a previous life, and there were ver…

>There are exceptions for immediate threat to life, but you can't go wild and start kicking and punching someone for trespassing.

I didn't see anyone "go wild and start kicking and punching" in the linked video.

Maybe it happened, the video isn't the clearest and it turns away from the action more than once, but that still isn't what the video appears to show.

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#44

Post by bytebuster »

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #26

whatever your stance is on politics, Violence is always the wrong way to resolve verbal conflicts.

I don't know any of the people involved in whatever happened. But this statement is simply not true.

You should not tolerate intolerance. "If a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant".

Some people can and will abuse the "you can't use violence against me under any circumstance" rule you just mentioned to do very bad things.

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#45

Post by Tomte »

scurvy wrote: post #41
Tomte wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German law has extraordinary self-defense statutes, both civil and criminal. The following applies to criminal self-defense: Any ongoing[1] illegal attack on any legal right may be warded off using force, including insults (that's an attack against personal honor). The force does not have to be proportional, only necessary (it must not be more severe than another one that would lead to success) and effective (it must…

I'd guess there's a bar to meet here on immediate danger, and my guess it wasn't here? Uninvited guest shows up to the party, you should call the police. Seems like there were 0 cool heads and everyone involved is guilty of something.

I'm not trying to judge whether whatever anybody did in this specific example (as little as we know) was valid self-defense. I'm just trying to convey some aspects of German law which may be very strange to people from other legal cultures.

For example, whenever I'm reading an article about "the new Texan shoot-first-ask-later law"[1]/stand-your-ground/castle-doctrine I'm very disappointed in the emotional reporting, because it seems so mild and almost pacifist.

[1] to use the cliché

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#46

Post by einrealist »

eqvinox wrote: post #9

Yeah, dude, posting a video of you getting kicked out primarily hints that you were being an idiot of some kind. Occam's razor, simplest explanation and whatnot. Feel free and try to elaborate / prove otherwise. Also, FYI, CCC team has "Hausrecht" and if they tell you to leave you legally need to leave and they're well within rights to evict you.

Hausrecht does not allow an assault or removal by force by the organizers. That's the domain of the police.

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#47

Post by s9w »

wolfgke wrote: post #21
kryogen1c wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Seems like one of those "free speech advocates" that enjoys being as offensive as possible and then howls if anyone tries to take their content down. The video is definitely not a "brutal assault". If the video is bad or incomplete, after pictures of injuries would easily prove his point. Attention-seeking behavior.

> Agreed. Seems like one of those "free speech advocates" that enjoys being as offensive as possible and then howls if anyone tries to take their content down. In Germany, "free speech" is not so deeply culturally ingrained: in the German Grundgesetz, paragraph 5, there is a concept of "Meinungsfreiheit" (freedom of opinion) ( https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_5.html ) which, even though "sufficient for most…

You can get convicted a very harsh sentence for using just a single word, and don't you citizen dare to use "hate speech!". There is no Meinungsfreiheit in Europe/Germany, it exists only on paper

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#48

Post by namibj »

tastroder wrote: post #34
pnako wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like a bunch of teenagers jumping someone. They don't look or behave like professional security agents. The bad chokehold one of them was attempting is actually banned from many police forces.

> They don't look or behave like professional security agents. Well they aren't. Security roles at congress are performed by volunteers and that's a good thing, they don't usually have to physically evict people.

Gate/door watch is volunteer/"angel shifts".

The CrewCrew bouncers are hired as far as I know. Angels don't have a reason to assault anyone except in personal self-defense, i.e. punching someone who's trying to jab a screwdriver into them or similar 1 on 1 assault defense cases.

The gate access control angels are instructed to dial 110 on DECT which connects them to CrewCrew dispatch/triage.

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#49

Post by throwaway82121 »

bytebuster wrote: post #44
Out_of_Characte wrote: post #26

whatever your stance is on politics, Violence is always the wrong way to resolve verbal conflicts.

I don't know any of the people involved in whatever happened. But this statement is simply not true. You should not tolerate intolerance. "If a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant". Some people can and will abuse the "you can't use violence against me under any circumstance" rule you just mentioned to do very bad things.

I would argue that resorting to physical violence to resolve verbal conflicts is quite high on the scale of intolerable things.

> You should not tolerate intolerance. "If a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant".

I have issues with this absolutism. What is "intolerance" or not is dependant of culture and context. Such a thin line that can be so easily moved, and you end up with the moral equivalent of "3 felonies a day". Then before you know it, you get fired because someone deemed that using 'they' indiscriminately is a form of intolerance.

Re: 36C3 Staff Assaulted Me for Political Reasons

#50

Post by gexcolo »

I'm the author of this post. What people who are unaware of the layout of the congress center don't realize is that the video starts when we were leaving. The door "inside" is actually to get "outside". I was told to leave in 5 minutes, I stayed where I was maybe 2 minutes and started walking (I'm not leaving anything out, it was just more of the first audio recording), and then was prevented from leaving the event by masked thugs who pretend to be real security guards on paper.

People assume I did something to deserve this, and I can live with that. But in reality it was nothing more than the list of domain names I own. I did my best to describe that here.

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