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A look inside TSMC

economist.com

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Re: A look inside TSMC

#11

Post by sytelus »

barrkel wrote: post #8
sytelus wrote: post #6

One thing I don't understand is why fabs got uprooted from USA. There doesn't seem to be cost savings if you try to offshore a multi-billion dollar fab because labor is not the main cost. So fab in China/Taiwan/USA should cost more or less same money to run.

There's nothing magical about innovation that requires it to be located in the US. Why do you think a foreign company should relocate to the US?

Transistors, microchips and fabs were all born and thrived in USA. One would think USA would have first mover advantage because this is very very hard to replicate tech but for some reason, fabs got completely eradicated from USA.

Re: A look inside TSMC

#12

Post by sytelus »

di4na wrote: post #9
sytelus wrote: post #6

One thing I don't understand is why fabs got uprooted from USA. There doesn't seem to be cost savings if you try to offshore a multi-billion dollar fab because labor is not the main cost. So fab in China/Taiwan/USA should cost more or less same money to run.

Environment protection laws. They all reject quite a lotbof nasty chemicals. We can filter or recycle them but it cost a lot at scale. This is an open secret in EE schools.

I'm doubtful Taiwan has such loose laws that would make up the cost difference.

Re: A look inside TSMC

#13

Post by shmerl »

sytelus wrote: post #6

One thing I don't understand is why fabs got uprooted from USA. There doesn't seem to be cost savings if you try to offshore a multi-billion dollar fab because labor is not the main cost. So fab in China/Taiwan/USA should cost more or less same money to run.

May be pollution reduction? Just a guess.

Re: A look inside TSMC

#14

Post by sytelus »

yorwba wrote: post #10
sytelus wrote: post #6

One thing I don't understand is why fabs got uprooted from USA. There doesn't seem to be cost savings if you try to offshore a multi-billion dollar fab because labor is not the main cost. So fab in China/Taiwan/USA should cost more or less same money to run.

If fabs everywhere cost the same, why would you build a new fab in the US instead of closer to where the final product will be assembled?

I know these would e controversial but here it goes:

1. You want fabs in a country where IP laws are protected so third parties don't get their designs stolen.

2. Critical tech from a military/trade perspective.

3. Other governments don't get to introduce secret low-level artifacts such as microcode into chips which runs whole world.

4. General availability of a higher level of capital for research.

5. The confluence of talent from all over the world can contribute to state of the art advancement.

Re: A look inside TSMC

#15

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

sytelus wrote: post #14
yorwba wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If fabs everywhere cost the same, why would you build a new fab in the US instead of closer to where the final product will be assembled?

I know these would e controversial but here it goes: 1. You want fabs in a country where IP laws are protected so third parties don't get their designs stolen. 2. Critical tech from a military/trade perspective. 3. Other governments don't get to introduce secret low-level artifacts such as microcode into chips which runs whole world. 4. General availability of a higher level of capital for research. 5. The confluence…

Nah, you should look at how China's supply chains are set up, you can get chips half a mile up the road that would be 30 miles away in the US.

It's not even labor cost anymore.

Re: A look inside TSMC

#16

Post by simonh »

sytelus wrote: post #11
barrkel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing magical about innovation that requires it to be located in the US. Why do you think a foreign company should relocate to the US?

Transistors, microchips and fabs were all born and thrived in USA. One would think USA would have first mover advantage because this is very very hard to replicate tech but for some reason, fabs got completely eradicated from USA.

There are still plenty of fabs in the USA. The Wikipedia page on the list of fabs puts over a hundred in the US[0]. I remember at one point when Samsung made most of the A Chips for Apple, the fab was actually in Texas though they do have a bunch in South Korea as well.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabric...

Re: A look inside TSMC

#17

Post by redis_mlc »

di4na wrote: post #9
sytelus wrote: post #6

One thing I don't understand is why fabs got uprooted from USA. There doesn't seem to be cost savings if you try to offshore a multi-billion dollar fab because labor is not the main cost. So fab in China/Taiwan/USA should cost more or less same money to run.

Environment protection laws. They all reject quite a lotbof nasty chemicals. We can filter or recycle them but it cost a lot at scale. This is an open secret in EE schools.

EPA and ROI on capital ...

Western companies tend to look at the ROI as a percentage, while Chinese businessmen at the actual profit amount.

As one said, "You can't take ROI to the bank. But I can deposit my nickels."

Re: A look inside TSMC

#18

Post by siscia »

I really found TSMC inspiring, the level of technology reached is amazing.

I only wish an effort from Europe to bring this expertise also in Europe.

Re: A look inside TSMC

#19

Post by taspeotis »

The article mentions it obliquely but fewer companies than ever can fab at the “edge.” [1] And Intel has faltered somewhat.

I can’t think of how there is going to be a new entrant to the market that competes with the current three’s processes.

[1] https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/technology_node#Leading_edge_tr...

Re: A look inside TSMC

#20

Post by PhantomGremlin »

dotnetcore wrote: post #4

TSMC = 80% foreign investment. its hardly Taiwanese at this point...

TSMC is a Taiwanese company.

The people in the C-suite are Taiwanese.

The fabs are in Taiwan. The people who operate the fabs are in Taiwan.

The people who do the R&D for all the processes live in Taiwan. The people who create the Intellectual Property live in Taiwan.

Analogously, many decades ago Mitsubishi Group, a Japanese company, bought Rockefeller Center. Ha ha. Good luck with that. If things didn't work out it's not like they could disassemble 30 Rock and put it on a boat to Japan. Unsurprisingly they no longer own it.

It's not like before WWII when the Japanese bought one of the elevated subway lines in NYC and disassembled it for steel and shipped it back home to build battleships.

TSMC's assets are in fabs that are difficult to disassemble without great expense. And the other important assets go home every night. "Foreign investment" isn't able to spirit them out of the country.

TSMC is a Taiwanese company. Who gives a fuck what some bookkeeping entries in some computer ledgers say about "foreign investment".

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