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Hepatitis C kills more Americans than all other infectious diseases combined

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Re: Hepatitis C kills more Americans than all other infectious diseases combined

#271

Post by tripzilch »

big_chungus wrote: post #270
tripzilch wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what really screwed things up? The ability for people to pay (two times, ten times, whatever) to get whatever they want and not give a f about how this affects society, and in particular the people without the ability to pay $$$ to get their will. What on earth are you dreaming that could give you the right to pay for the ability to deny health care to the rest of society?? Because without that society, you…

I am not paying to deny any one any thing; rather I am simply not paying for them to receive it. What is wrong with paying to get what I want? How does my purchase of medical treatment harm another? > Because without that society, you too, are nothing. This reflects a profound ideological difference between you and me. I believe the individual's value is a unique, personal thing that exists independent of society; yo…

But you said you would rather pay twice as much for healthcare if it avoids that money would also be spent to help others. Sounds to me like you'd be paying extra so others don't receive it.

I'm probably misunderstanding something you said here, because even accounting for that profound ideological difference, that still seems really weird.

And speaking of that, well first let me deny that I think individuals are without value on their own. Indeed I am apparently much more of a collectivist person; but it is because I believe in every individual's value that we all should take care of each other, in order for that value to prosper. What I meant was, without a society, you are just some weirdo without a bank account, knocking on a doctor's door, twice. Which was probably a bit hyperbolic.

I was going to argue my side of this ideological divide, but I should really be spending my energy elsewhere (what I had half-written was getting way too long) ... so I'm gonna leave it at that.

Re: Hepatitis C kills more Americans than all other infectious diseases combined

#272

Post by big_chungus »

tripzilch wrote: post #271
big_chungus wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not paying to deny any one any thing; rather I am simply not paying for them to receive it. What is wrong with paying to get what I want? How does my purchase of medical treatment harm another? > Because without that society, you too, are nothing. This reflects a profound ideological difference between you and me. I believe the individual's value is a unique, personal thing that exists independent of society; yo…

But you said you would rather pay twice as much for healthcare if it avoids that money would also be spent to help others. Sounds to me like you'd be paying extra so others don't receive it. I'm probably misunderstanding something you said here, because even accounting for that profound ideological difference, that still seems really weird. And speaking of that, well first let me deny that I think individuals are wit…

> But you said you would rather pay twice as much for healthcare if it avoids that money would also be spent to help others. Sounds to me like you'd be paying extra so others don't receive it.

No, I said that I'd pay more for a private vs a cheaper _government_ alternative. My objection is to government involvement, not to helping out my fellow man. I give to private charities because I believe they are more effective and more moral.

Re: Hepatitis C kills more Americans than all other infectious diseases combined

#273

Post by D-Coder »

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #252
MisterTea wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's the "right" price, you want to incentivize companies to try to develop drugs that will do the maximal amount of good. So the only incentive to do maximal good is more money. And people wonder why I laugh when it's claimed that we live in a civilized society.

You have to make a distinction between a person and a corporation. Now I feel I should say, I'm not in favor of the "Citizens United" ruling before I start down this path. The mandated motivation for a corporation is to maximize share value for it's shareholders. That's it, as creepy as it is. CEO's (well "good" sociopathic ones) compartmentalize everyone's jobs so they only do the little bit of bad that they are com…

> The mandated motivation for a corporation is to maximize share value for it's shareholders.

That's actually not the case. It became dogma in the 1980s but there is no legal mandate for this.

Re: Hepatitis C kills more Americans than all other infectious diseases combined

#274

Post by chimeracoder »

evgen wrote: post #264
chimeracoder wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s basically to the point where it’s: > > Go to and be treated for For Hepatitis C? Absolutely not. It's way easier for US citizens to access the drugs to cure HCV in the US than it is for, say, British citizens to access it in the UK. If you want to talk about other conditions, fine, but for Hepatitis C, this statements is patently false.

Given that the NHS lists most of the meds discussed so far as approved treatments [ https://www.nsh.uk/conditions/hepatitis-c/treatment ] and Hep C is been a target for increased treatment by the NHS for the past two years I am wondering what you base your claim that it is easier for US citizens to get access to the drugs than it is in the UK?

> Given that the NHS lists most of the meds discussed so far as approved treatments [https://www.nsh.uk/conditions/hepatitis-c/treatment] and Hep C is been a target for increased treatment by the NHS for the past two years I am wondering what you base your claim that it is easier for US citizens to get access to the drugs than it is in the UK?

"Approved treatments" just means "there exists a circumstance under which the NHS will cover them". For starters, the NHS almost never treats patients in acute stages of infection, whereas insurers in the US don't distinguish between acute and chronic infections. The NHS also tries to force patients to use interferon-based treatment first before covering the newer medications. There are ways around that, but it's not simple or easy.

Re: Hepatitis C kills more Americans than all other infectious diseases combined

#275

Post by chimeracoder »

masonic wrote: post #208
chimeracoder wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes a long time for the body to produce the antibodies after infection. This test is only 90% sensitive after 12 weeks That's not much of a problem except for people worried about infection after a single known exposure (e.g. needlestick in a medical setting). About a third of patients spontaneously clear the acute infection within six months. On top of that, some countries (such as Germany) refuse to treat ac…

That's not much of a problem It certainly is a problem if they can infect others during that interval.

> It certainly is a problem if they can infect others during that interval.

Tell that to Europe! The NHS, as well as private insurers in Germany and the Netherlands, refuse to treat patients until they've been infected for at least six months. In the US, insurers don't make this distinction.

Re: Hepatitis C kills more Americans than all other infectious diseases combined

#276

Post by chimeracoder »

erichocean wrote: post #251
chimeracoder wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes a long time for the body to produce the antibodies after infection. This test is only 90% sensitive after 12 weeks That's not much of a problem except for people worried about infection after a single known exposure (e.g. needlestick in a medical setting). About a third of patients spontaneously clear the acute infection within six months. On top of that, some countries (such as Germany) refuse to treat ac…

> On top of that, some countries (such as Germany) refuse to treat acute infections with antivirals Well, that's one way to save money…

> Well, that's one way to save money…

In the short term, yes. In the long term, it means far more people to treat overall, because more people get infected.

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