It never ceases to amaze me how often technical people in general and computer programmers in particular read this book and can't see the point, which is that your values can't be deduced by logic.
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
21–30 of 80 posts
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you come from a solid grounding in (specifically Greek) philosophy, the concepts and questions Pirsig raises are familiar, but for me the way he addressed them seemed much less self-indulgent. Greek philosophers were public intellectuals and, for me at least, reading their texts was somewhat off-putting because of the level of... grandstanding for lack of a better word. ZAMM seems so much more honest. It's framed…
> grandstanding for lack of a better word. This is really interesting to me. I've recently started reading more political philosophy, and a few weeks ago, dug into "On the Genealogy of Morals" by Nietzsche, and when I got to that whole anti-Judiasim bit (the one about hawks and lambs), all I could think was "this sounds like /b/" or "I bet he was just trolling for pageviews, given that he's writing this in 1887 Germa…
I don't think you're reading the book very well, to be honest. I'm a bit of a Nietzsche fan and I think you'll find that he praises the Jews in various parts of the book.
He despised anti-semitism as well as the formative groups that led to national socialism.
To focus on one example he made like that is very bad form.
His commentary on the brutality of societies relatively to how secure they feel was particularly brilliant. Applicable today especially when you contrast European democratic socialism and their criminal justice systems versus the US and other parts of the world.
And yet all you can extract out of his writing is that you believe he was some kind of provocateur?
This makes me genuinely sad. I'd expect a deeper and more thorough reading of my favorite author and philosopher out of HN.
I hope you'll review Genealogy or consider reading Beyond Good & Evil.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
> grandstanding for lack of a better word. This is really interesting to me. I've recently started reading more political philosophy, and a few weeks ago, dug into "On the Genealogy of Morals" by Nietzsche, and when I got to that whole anti-Judiasim bit (the one about hawks and lambs), all I could think was "this sounds like /b/" or "I bet he was just trolling for pageviews, given that he's writing this in 1887 Germa…
I like that comparison, he is kind of the troll of philosophical history. The interesting thing about Nietzsche, though (esepecially in Geneaology ) is that he takes on so many different voices to address different existing philosophies such that you can't really say (although many have) that he's anti-semitic (In fact, IIRC he seemed to dig the old testament Jews' style) or anti-christianity . The difference between…
>adolescent
Pointing out the hypocrisy and self-consuming nature of the greater moral system underlying western religion is scarcely adolescent and even in his day that took a good deal of courage to speak out like that.
He was provocative, but not for its own sake.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
> grandstanding for lack of a better word. This is really interesting to me. I've recently started reading more political philosophy, and a few weeks ago, dug into "On the Genealogy of Morals" by Nietzsche, and when I got to that whole anti-Judiasim bit (the one about hawks and lambs), all I could think was "this sounds like /b/" or "I bet he was just trolling for pageviews, given that he's writing this in 1887 Germa…
I don't think you're reading the book very well, to be honest. I'm a bit of a Nietzsche fan and I think you'll find that he praises the Jews in various parts of the book. He despised anti-semitism as well as the formative groups that led to national socialism. To focus on one example he made like that is very bad form. His commentary on the brutality of societies relatively to how secure they feel was particularly br…
First of all, you'll notice that I said "when I got to the bit about," not "This is my final view of Nietzsche."
Secondly, I didn't say that it was "all [I] can extract out of his writing," either.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#25The cornerstone of originality within this book is how Pirsig introduces his philosophy of Quality. Yet, if you read ZAMM carefully, he never defines this term. Overall, a frustrating and thought-provoking read.
Well, that's sort of the point.
psedo-qq/ Quality is that which is good, but if you try to put your finger on it, it sort of squishes out and you end up with empty platitudes and tautologies. / (my apologies, it's been 10 years since I've read it, and my copy isn't here)
He goes into it in the class, teaching it but refusing to define it, and one level higher, does it with the book.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#26Out of curiosity, how did people who had already studied philosophy find this book? Nothing in it struck me as particularly revelatory, and I'm wondering if maybe I just wasn't the intended audience.
I think the more common reaction is the other way around. The book was revelatory when I read it (as a young teen), but when I returned to it years later, after studying philosophy, I was surprised by how shallow it really was.
I think that books like this are life-changing if and only if they connect with you at the right time. Put another way, the number of life-changing books one reads tapers off quite quickly after, say, 30.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think you're reading the book very well, to be honest. I'm a bit of a Nietzsche fan and I think you'll find that he praises the Jews in various parts of the book. He despised anti-semitism as well as the formative groups that led to national socialism. To focus on one example he made like that is very bad form. His commentary on the brutality of societies relatively to how secure they feel was particularly br…
First of all, you'll notice that I said "when I got to the bit about," not "This is my final view of Nietzsche." Secondly, I didn't say that it was "all [I] can extract out of his writing," either.
People tend to extract and reference what stuck with them most about a particular work unless they're a scholar in the material.
The accusations of anti-semitism against Nietzsche are rampant and my attempts to play whack-a-mole with them really have nothing to do with your inability to couch your statements.
If you don't want that kind of response in future, clarify yourself. I have enough work to do that I shouldn't have to keep adding a N.B. to half-baked readings of core western philosophy.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#28Lila: An Inquiry into Morals is Pirsig's second book which is described as the defining work of the Metaphysics of Quality (MOQ).
I loved ZAMM, but Lila is a much better book and even more though-provoking. I've read it 4 times through, and I still don't think I could write a complete review of it.
So if you liked ZAMM, definitely pick up Lila.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#29Lila: An Inquiry into Morals is Pirsig's second book which is described as the defining work of the Metaphysics of Quality (MOQ). I loved ZAMM, but Lila is a much better book and even more though-provoking. I've read it 4 times through, and I still don't think I could write a complete review of it. So if you liked ZAMM, definitely pick up Lila.
Interesting, because I really did like ZAMM, but I've never heard of Lila. I'll check it out.
Re: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
There have been a few books like this, that are supposed to be massive and life changing, but when I read they just fell flat. Everything by Ayn Rand I read was like this too. I could get past the pacing, the circular storytelling, and largely the premise of it just didn't work in my mind. It was not something I could get into and getting past more than a chapter at a time was painful. Oddly, I like philosophy and I…
> My only theory is that since these books have been published, the core ideas have worked their way through our culture so throughly that reading it now just seems like 'duh'. This is the way I felt reading Ayn Rand and not a single interesting thing there popped out at me as new or novel. Either that, or the ideas are presented within the pages as interesting and novel, but they're actually simple takes on simple q…
Orwell is revered precisely because he was both simple and correct. Whoever told you that Orwell was supposed to be some sort of intellectual challenge or deep philosophy did you a great dis-service, because that's entirely missing the point. He cut through complex or pretentious intellectual bullshit like a chainsaw through butter.
Imagine your job was to explain the Bolshevik revolution to humanity. Not to intellectuals, to everyone. In the most clear, straightforward and plain way possible so that the greatest number of people could read and understand what you wrote. Now try to imagine a book better at that than Animal Farm.