Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

stlouisfed.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 360 posts

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#181

Post by criddell »

mooreds wrote: post #155
keiferski wrote: post #153

A proper title would be Is College Still Worth It [Financially]? Evaluating an education purely on economic terms is the wrong move to make, but unfortunately an increasingly common one.

What other terms should be included? I can think of a few: * Life experience * Knowledge gained * Friends made But what would you add?

University was the start of my professional network. Sometimes a good contact or referral from a respected professor is pretty valuable.

On the life experience front, university for me was like a halfway house as far as independence goes. I went from living with my family getting all the support I could ask for, then to university where I had to do more stuff for myself, to complete independence after graduation.

But I think the biggest win for me was really learning how to learn and finding out that I love learning things. High school was pushing me in exactly the opposite direction.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#182

Post by koheripbal »

cipher_system wrote: post #128
amiga_500 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I knew NZ was pretty messed up but I didn't realise it was that bad. The friend bit is anecdata. Looks like NZ avg debt is $28k NZD [1] USA is $29 USD [2] So USA is 50% more expensive, on avg (NZDUSD 1.5). IMHO both are a disgrace, but that's another thing. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_New_Zealand#S... 2: https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

$29k is not that much is it? That is about what I ended up with for my degree in Sweden where higher education is free but you borrow for living expenses. I repay it with about $100 per month for 25 years. Perhaps the biggest difference is the interest rate which is government backed and around maybe 1-2%. According to first result on Google the interest rates on US student loans seems to be around 6-8%.

4.5% for US gov't subsidized loans.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#183

Post by kortilla »

halfjoking wrote: post #134
amiga_500 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI would just feed directly into rents because that's how prices are set. UBI would require land value tax to ensure the public value is capture for public spending. UBI alone is a land speculator wet dream and Yang is totally wrong to be pushing it without LVT. Yes in the middle of nowhere it can help, but most people are in cities and rents will rise there to current rent + UBI amount.

Yang is willing to adjust policy positions if the data supports it. If property prices are being raised due to UBI, then I'm sure he'd support something like LVT. That's the difference with Yang. He's the most data-driven politician I've ever seen. Other politicians seem mostly ideological, and I don't think they'd adjust their policies even in the face of overwhelming data it's not working. Like if Warren used Antit…

Holding onto UBI at this point is ideological for him. There is no evidence that $10k/year is near enough to alleviate people from having to take terrible jobs. $10k/year is about the equivalent of making $5/hr full time, which is below minimum wage and way into poverty.

At this point his proposal is just a really expensive handout for people that already have jobs. And what critical social services are going to be cut to foot that bill?

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#184

Post by throwno »

If trades make so much money, how come no one is bitching about fatcat plumbers and roofers? Why hasn't the NY Times published any articles about how "Big Plumbing is soaking the middle class" etc.? For all the ways the middle class is getting hammered, I have yet to see one book about how plumbers are killing the middle class like I have with doctors, lawyers, techbros, and bankers. Until a journalist from NY Times or Bloomberg writes a book about how the decline of the American middle class is due to a plumbing conspiracy, you're just not bourgeois. Sorry.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#185

Post by zitterbewegung »

cipher_system wrote: post #128
amiga_500 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I knew NZ was pretty messed up but I didn't realise it was that bad. The friend bit is anecdata. Looks like NZ avg debt is $28k NZD [1] USA is $29 USD [2] So USA is 50% more expensive, on avg (NZDUSD 1.5). IMHO both are a disgrace, but that's another thing. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_New_Zealand#S... 2: https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

$29k is not that much is it? That is about what I ended up with for my degree in Sweden where higher education is free but you borrow for living expenses. I repay it with about $100 per month for 25 years. Perhaps the biggest difference is the interest rate which is government backed and around maybe 1-2%. According to first result on Google the interest rates on US student loans seems to be around 6-8%.

Yes, but you get the 6-8% as a tax deduction if you can pay it as long as the loan is from the govt.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#186

Post by vharuck »

dustinmoris wrote: post #157

Disclaimer: I don't have a degree and I've had a very successful career as software engineer so far. I think the concept of university is mostly a time waste and the reasons for it is: - University is the concept of someone teaching you a topic and then you being able to claim you are qualified in this topic. However, people nowadays need to train themselves in complete new fields multiple times in their lifetime and…

> University is the concept of someone teaching you a topic and then you being able to claim you are qualified in this topic.

University is supposed to be learning from the experience of experts. Having a person with experience on hand cuts down the time needed to learn things. Online articles and tutorials aren't a dialogue. Online forums are good, but often can't promise somebody will care about your education. Universities have staff who are paid to teach, talk with, and answer you.

That's not to say you're wrong about the value of universities in practice. Kids are told to focus on reviewing textbooks with other students in the same class, getting high grades, and graduating with a degree. People say "visit professors during office hours," but don't stress that this is part of the most valuable thing in a university: an expert who is required to help you learn the field.

> Experience > degree. After the first 2-4 years of work experience nobody cares anymore about your initial degree, unless it's medicine or law.

Assuming a similar skill level. But a student can leave a 4-year university with a higher skill level than somebody who learned on the job for 4 years. Those people usually just have time to learn about the job they have, so they might take longer to gain skills for the next rung on the career ladder.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#187

Post by i_am_proteus »

throwno wrote: post #184

If trades make so much money, how come no one is bitching about fatcat plumbers and roofers? Why hasn't the NY Times published any articles about how "Big Plumbing is soaking the middle class" etc.? For all the ways the middle class is getting hammered, I have yet to see one book about how plumbers are killing the middle class like I have with doctors, lawyers, techbros, and bankers. Until a journalist from NY Times…

Because the value a roofer adds is obvious and the value an attorney adds is questionable.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#188

Post by throwaway100773 »

throwno wrote: post #184

If trades make so much money, how come no one is bitching about fatcat plumbers and roofers? Why hasn't the NY Times published any articles about how "Big Plumbing is soaking the middle class" etc.? For all the ways the middle class is getting hammered, I have yet to see one book about how plumbers are killing the middle class like I have with doctors, lawyers, techbros, and bankers. Until a journalist from NY Times…

The issue is that trades don’t scale like all of the things you mention. Even if you own a very successful plumbing company, your ability to scale is constrained by geography, labor costs and finding people you can trust to manage your company. Not to mention, there are market forces working against the plumber trying to scale, and the plumber’s ability to affect policy is proportional to the ability to scale.

Anecdotally, plumbers charge more per hour in some cases than many lawyers make. Their income, however, is limited by their ability to book many jobs and actually carry them out. The opportunity cost of one job is exactly another job. So comparing to other wage earners their income is high, but compared to a banker that can make several loans in the course of a day where the opportunity cost is only capital (which they have practically unlimited access to being that theyre a banker) changes the situation quite drastically.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#189

Post by vasilipupkin »

mlyle wrote: post #110
throwawayjava wrote: post #5

Their familial controls don't make much sense to me. An actuary's kid will have an easier time becoming an actuary. Same for lawyers and doctors. That doesn't mean that college is a non causal factor in those students lifetime earnings... Quite the opposite. You're not becoming any of those things without college. The student went to college precisely because they understand viscerally and precisely how college sets…

> Their familial controls don't make much sense to me. There's a lot of recent evidence that, all else being equal (controlling for educational attainment, test scores, and grades) parental income/social class has a huge impact on income. That is, if you come from a lower social class, you can expect a lower income increase from college than someone coming from a higher social class. There's significant policy implic…

no, that’s completely wrong. You are confusing averages and conditional probabilities. On average, those from higher classes may do better - that doesn’t mean that a kid from s lower social class should take that as guidance. It means we should try to erase or lessen differences of opportunities between classes. Some of these differences are probably innate. A brain surgeon is likely smart and his kids are probably also smart. Some, but most are due to informational deficiencies and networking effects.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#190

Post by astura »

ransom1538 wrote: post #95
prepend wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My plumber wont show up for a 30 minute $300 job. You brought up a 30 minute job. So I shared what it costs for me for a 30 minute (or more) job. And that it’s easy to get someone to come quickly for such a job. I’m saying that if the problem can be solved in an hour, it’s $95. This is called a “service call.” Basically coming out and fixing what can be fixed without buying parts. Any extra labor would cost more. T…

You are right. I can't get home depot to throw something off the truck for less than $200 broken. (And deny it showed up). So, where you are, where you live, I envy it. I imagine a world of nice plumbers and helper people. Canada????

I live in a smaller town and I had a very nice plumber show up in like 10 minutes for a simple job for $150.
Post reply on HN