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The Two Kinds of Moderate

paulgraham.com

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Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#361
post #140

> Whereas an accidental moderate's opinions will be scattered over a broad range, but will, like those of the intentional moderate, average to about 50. This is only the case if left and right are equally right and wrong, which is unlikely to be the case. The average place of an accidental moderate could be anywhere, even to the left of the left or the right of right right.

It's not about whether they are equally right and wrong, but if they are equally far from the median or average viewpoint. And I'd say it is very likely that they are. Almost by definition, in the sense that right and left are relative terms. That being the case, I think PG is correct that accidental moderates should tend to average in the middle. In general.

I don't think it works out that way. Thinking about politics as a single left/right continuum might make it seem like it would, but

* measuring distance to know how "far" they are is hard, so hard to say how far any given position is from the "median or average" viewpoint * hard also to measure not just the distance, but how common such a position is, which you'd need to do as well * harder still to do this over many different positions * harder still when you realise that, of course, the left/right thing is an incredibly simplified (although sometimes useful) way of looking at a complicated set of topics

For any individual "moderate" it seems very unlikely that they will end up "in the middle" even across a range of political topics.

For an aggregate of all "moderates", then it'll end up somewhere, but no reason to assume that it will be in the middle of things (even if you could determine where such a middle even was).

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#362
post #140

> Whereas an accidental moderate's opinions will be scattered over a broad range, but will, like those of the intentional moderate, average to about 50. This is only the case if left and right are equally right and wrong, which is unlikely to be the case. The average place of an accidental moderate could be anywhere, even to the left of the left or the right of right right.

Sure. A more mathematical description would be "standard deviation of beliefs across numerous issues predicts thinking for oneself" Of course, thinking for oneself might not correlate with being correct. I can think of numerous issues where those who challenge the status quo are more likely to be wrong (e.g. medicine).

That sounds entirely reasonable, but was not at all what he said in the statement I quoted.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to be careful not to criticize the post on its own terms. Paul Graham should totally write things like this on his own site! It sucks having to be careful about what you because of what other people will do with it, and the weird debates you'll be forced into as a result. I'm just saying, to the extent this post is political, it's political in a totally routine way that doesn't clear the "interestingness" bar…

> Paul Graham should totally write things like this on his own site! He sure can, but having a platform and competence in one area doesn't mean your skill applies to another. This whole article is a fascinating example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. The idea, of two kinds of moderates is interesting. The framing is, at best weak and at worst very flawed, shallow and a gross oversimplification. The shots at the left, a…

I got 2 angles on this essay:

1) As far as I am concerned, it just shows PG's colors where he stands on the spectrum, and that is: Useful on its own. It also appears to refute its own point.

2) The accidental moderate serves a different purpose: it diffuses the left vs right as being black and white set in stone. The worst thing in a political discussion is saying "you are X on political spectrum" (or any name calling) and ignore whatever the other person has to say. It is akin to being Republican or Democrat (or any other 2 political parties) without considering the candidates or viewpoints they expressed.

That being said before I opened the essay I expected it to be about the act of (self-)moderation, so I was disappointed.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an accidental moderate myself, it does take courage. You don't belong on the right or the left. I'm too liberal for conservatives, and too conservative for liberals. I'm not even part of my parent's political or religious tribe. An accidental moderate means being tribeless. It doesn't surprise me that those kinds of people would be more impressive, since anyone who describes themselves as right or left, democrat o…

I really hope this post is satire

Enlighten me if you think I'm wrong.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Just because we don't agree on the answer doesn't mean that there is no correct answer. If there are no correct or incorrect policies then there is no need to vote. 2. There is strong agreement on lots of things: 95 percent disapprove of people using cell phones in movie theaters. (Pew Research Center’s American Trends Panel Poll, 2014) 97 percent believe there should be laws against texting while driving. (The Ne…

> If there are no correct or incorrect policies then there is no need to vote. If there were correct or incorrect policies, there wouldn't be any need to vote. If politics was a science or a math, we wouldn't need to vote. We be able to test or prove the correct answer. The reason we vote is precisely because there is no correct answer in politics. There is a why science and math doesn't work by consensus or a vote.

>If politics was a science or a math, we wouldn't need to vote.

There are all kinds of questions with best practices, right and wrong answers. There are better and worse ways to aggregate agricultural statistics, for instance. And we don't think of that in terms of a left and right, it's just something that's administered by a department. And no one thinks that that's because of single-minded ideological extremism that only permits one view, or that the approach needs to be replaced with a polarized one stretched between two competing ideologies in order to represent healthy discourse.

There are a range of views where there are right answers, things are polarized that shouldn't be-- climate change for instance, where the debate has been hurt by moderates insisting on a need to treat all sides as equally legitimate. And moderates have absolutely no underlying theory about what makes those examples different. Those examples entirely defeat the concept of moderation as an overarching political principle.

That's the real problem with moderation- it's expressed as an aspirational principle that's independent of any on the ground engagement with arguments or facts. It's not something that is arrived at on a case by case basis from examination of facts, which to my mind would be the valid reason for arriving at moderation, or any political belief. If someone said we should replace all agricultural data with randomly generated numbers, that could polarize agricultural statistics, and then moderates would enter that debate chiding both sides as extremes that need to listen to each other.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Time spent on anti-descrimination policies is inherently time not spent on economic issues. Can you give anything close to a concrete example of this? Even ignoring the indivisibility of the economic and social spheres (ask a black person if the CRA was an "economic issue" - ask a trans person if whether they can safely pee at work is an "economic issue"), and that it's not a zero-sum game (for example, the heighte…

> Can you give anything close to a concrete example of this? Sure, although I feel like your response is largely due to an uncharitable reading of my post. Whether someone can use a specific bathroom has an impact on a tiny percentage of the US population; pretty much only trans or non-binary people. Sure it's still economic in some contexts and it was incorrect for me to insinuate that it was totally social, but it…

> > Can you give anything close to a concrete example of this?

> Sure, [a bunch of broad non-specific examples]

OK.

> You have very clearly not been to large swaths of the United States.

Grew up in WI, close family / friends in MI, MN, NE, IA, and IL, dated a boy from TN and a girl from WV, but sure, tell me how there's no gays in the midwest.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you give anything close to a concrete example of this? Sure, although I feel like your response is largely due to an uncharitable reading of my post. Whether someone can use a specific bathroom has an impact on a tiny percentage of the US population; pretty much only trans or non-binary people. Sure it's still economic in some contexts and it was incorrect for me to insinuate that it was totally social, but it…

> > Can you give anything close to a concrete example of this? > Sure, [a bunch of broad non-specific examples] OK. > You have very clearly not been to large swaths of the United States. Grew up in WI, close family / friends in MI, MN, NE, IA, and IL, dated a boy from TN and a girl from WV, but sure, tell me how there's no gays in the midwest.

Bathroom example is a specific example; there was a huge uproar about bathroom rights in North Carolina I want to say about 5 years ago, and it resulted in national media attention and subsequent legislative attention in many states. Further you didn't contradict anything else I said or any of the other basic claims I've been making. Sorry political reality and the concept of self-interest make you unhappy.

> Grew up in WI, close family / friends in MI, MN, NE, IA, and IL, dated a boy from TN and a girl from WV, but sure, tell me how there's no gays in the midwest.

Last I checked there were more than 8 states in the United States. Further, your response doesn't invalidate what I said in any way. You are an n of 1 and we are talking about tens of millions of people in there states. Just because you met a LGBT from a state doesn't mean that everyone else from that state met them or any other LGBT. Please point out where I said there were no gays in the Midwest.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Former Democrats who become Republicans because they feel the party has shifted out from under them are creating excuses to mask their own changing opinions. To me, this is the incoherent view. Of course the voter base has changing opinions. It's completely to be expected that over the course of decades political alliances will shift. The entire point of what I said is that the political opinions of the Democratic…

> The entire point of what I said is that the political opinions of the Democratic party moved in a direction that did not match that of my general demographic. Now that opinions have shifted, we find that our interests are better served by Republican talking points than by Democratic ones. I agree that the Democratic platform has moved, but it moved rightwards. The Republican platform has also moved (considerably mo…

Political opinions aren't a straight line, as much as we like to pretend it is.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an essay on politics. It goes to show that people in tech are acknowledging more that the industry is not apolitical and has a very real social and political effect on the world at large, and are so dropping the pretense of lacking political interest. That and like the rest of the world, the tech industry has become increasingly politically polarized over the last half decade.

To be fair to PG, perhaps, someone else shared his post on HN so he didn't break any rules. On a different note, I guess in the age of Facebook, it's not possible for tech to remain silent on politics whether we like it or not.

This is exactly the reason I asked the question. PG didn't post this on HN.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not aware of Hillary as Saul Alinsky’s disciple? It was a right wing staple for the entire campaign.

(Upvoted on the assumption that you're trying to educate people about the right's tactics rather than actually advancing this position - unfortunately a lot of people genuinely believe this , even upthread, so it's hard to tell from short comments.) ((And meanwhile, Alinsky's playbook did actually work wonders for the Tea Party.))

It’s been quite educating in the last few years how many in the techworld who consider themselves “left”, “moderate” or “libertarian” are completely unaware of their “opponents” memes.

The opposite of course is true, but I thought “we” were supposed to be more curious...

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