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Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

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Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#21

Post by gaius »

cperciva wrote: post #2

In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree. As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a ma…

My company is completely casual, in fact my boss dresses more casually than I do, but I still expect every interview candidate suited and booted - it's no different from expecting no spelling mistakes on their CVs.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#22

Post by LogicHoleFlaw »

tc7 wrote: post #8
cperciva wrote: post #2

In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree. As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a ma…

"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for." Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews. For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're…

To me at least, a suit is a tool to be used where it will give me leverage I would not otherwise have. It's a social hack to get access to both places and people. Personally I prefer not to work in one, but for important meetings or for working directly with (formal, older) customers then it's worth putting on the monkey suit.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#23

Post by gaius »

LPTS wrote: post #17
cperciva wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The t-shirt and jeans can wait until you've proven yourself for a few months. There's no contradiction between what I said and what you're saying -- we just happen to want different jobs. I don't want a job which has expectations for clothing beyond "yes please". It's up to the original poster to decide what sort of job he wants and dress appropriately for that -- odds are, the job he wants is one which neither of us…

I don't want employees that spend all that time fretting over what they wear. I want employees that would look at me funny if I asked them to dress nice. I'd want to see a funny, bewildered, slightly pained look on their face that said "I'm one of the best people at what I do, I'm doing important work, I could work anywhere, each second I waste on this is something that doesn't go into designing the future, and you w…

Umm, yeah. And if a candidate had spelling mistakes on his resume, would you think "well, I'm hiring him to code, not to write documentation"? Or would you in fact not even bother to interview him at all?

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#24

Post by johnyzee »

tc7 wrote: post #8
cperciva wrote: post #2

In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree. As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a ma…

"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for." Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews. For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're…

> "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life."

That puts into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I defiantly wear dress pants and expensive shirts (+ suit and tie for interviews) even when working at a tech startup with 20-somethings in (carefully chosen) worn jeans and t-shirts.

If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#25

Post by edw519 »

"I dislike cover letters because they feel extremely artificial."

Then make yours natural. Write like you speak and say what you want to say.

"is this over-the-top or absurd"

A suit is never absurd, except at the beach. When in doubt, overdress. You can always take off your jacket (and tie).

And don't forget the handwritten and sincere Thank You Note.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#26

Post by mkull »

dress for your interview one-tier above the formality of dress the company you are applying to wears.

if the company standard is business casual - wear a suit if everyone is in shorts / tshirts - wear slacks and a shirt with a collar

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#27

Post by LogicHoleFlaw »

[deleted] wrote: post #12

[deleted]

The suit gains you 5 seconds of respect until you open your mouth. Then hopefully you will actually know something.

That's a crucial 5 seconds though. And it's not actually hard to get a clean, well-fitting suit. Most of the hackers I know actually clean up very nicely. That 5 seconds can set the tone for a positive and productive interview.

Absolutely you need to exhaustively research the company you're interviewing with. It's not just to impress your interviewer but also to find out if that company will be a good fit for you.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#28

Post by LPTS »

gaius wrote: post #23
LPTS wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want employees that spend all that time fretting over what they wear. I want employees that would look at me funny if I asked them to dress nice. I'd want to see a funny, bewildered, slightly pained look on their face that said "I'm one of the best people at what I do, I'm doing important work, I could work anywhere, each second I waste on this is something that doesn't go into designing the future, and you w…

Umm, yeah. And if a candidate had spelling mistakes on his resume, would you think "well, I'm hiring him to code, not to write documentation"? Or would you in fact not even bother to interview him at all?

Well a resume conveys useful information, which is important. Dress does not. It's a signal to noise ratio thing.

Incidentally, bad spelling in an otherwise smart person is a good sign of creativity, because it's correlated with personality types that correlate with creative thinking (when intelligence is evidenced at all).

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#29

Post by pxlpshr »

LogicHoleFlaw wrote: post #22
tc7 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for." Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews. For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're…

To me at least, a suit is a tool to be used where it will give me leverage I would not otherwise have. It's a social hack to get access to both places and people. Personally I prefer not to work in one, but for important meetings or for working directly with (formal, older) customers then it's worth putting on the monkey suit.

Forgive me, but I find it humorous that you reference a suit as a "monkey" costume, particularly in comparison to the art direction and name of Bathing Ape and the like.

I'm 26 and I find the trendy designer-esque throwback to the 80's an eye-sore that belongs in a circus, and a contradiction to the shouting cry for individuality when hipsters congregate.

Re: Interviewing for startups : are formal cover letters + suits necessary, neutral, or harmful?

#30

Post by thorax »

gaius wrote: post #21
cperciva wrote: post #2

In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree. As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a ma…

My company is completely casual, in fact my boss dresses more casually than I do, but I still expect every interview candidate suited and booted - it's no different from expecting no spelling mistakes on their CVs.

As a counter-anecdote, I did a (full-day) software engineering interview in 1998 wearing an old Magic The Gathering t-shirt and jean shorts. I'm not sure what I was thinking except the HR person told me they were pretty casual there-- this was for a really cool development tool company.

Anyway, I went on to be hired and then promoted through dev lead, dev manager, and architect roles at that company.

So, I'm not of the mind that it's something to worry too much about if you're a decent hacker. My more recent interview sessions, I've pretty much always been wearing a suit or at least business casual, but I wouldn't say it's a hard-and-fast rule, especially for a startup and junior position. Still, YMMV.

If a company makes a huge deal about you not being well-dressed then they probably aren't going to be the most flexible company to work for. I know I don't tend to judge candidates specifically by the way they dress, but those who look comfortable in nice clothes do come across more professional.

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