I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams • Hacker News Board

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#421

Post by turk73 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:01 AM UTC

Balanceinfinity wrote: post #283

A degree from an expensive private school or out of state school is a luxury item, and parents need to treat them like the Jaguar or Porsche with a comparable value. If your child got their license and asked for a Range Rover, would you plunk down $100,000? Then why on earth would you do it for an undergraduate degree to an expensive school. If anything, the money should be saved for graduate school, where the big pa…

I disagree. Luxury cars depreciate in value just like any other car. The right school is an investment in future income by way of the people you get connected to as well as what you learn and build a career off of. It's what you make of it, though. It's not an easy road no matter what. Is it worth it? Maybe. Or you could fly to Vegas and put it all on black at roulette, I guess.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#422

Post by turk73 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

therealmarv wrote: post #159

Lived in many EU countries. Never seen a problem close to this one in that countries regarding education.

This is a thoroughly American debacle brought on by Bill Clinton and abetted by every US President since then. Their simplistic idea was to make education "affordable" for all, and in their infinite wisdom, they fucked up higher education beyond all recognition. They invited Wall Street bankers to come in and wreak financial havoc. The schools were all in on the scheme, so if they eventually all go under, remember, they have it coming.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#423

Post by learc83 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

tengbretson wrote: post #406

learc83 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or wait 20 years until it's cancelled. People regularly take out 30 year home loans much larger than the average student loan debt without debilitating psychiatric problems.

This isn't comparable in the least, since there's no equity built up over the course of paying off student debt.

Most people are never going to be able to access the equity unless they retire and downsize.

And people end up in situations where they can't make payments and have to walk away and take the credit hit all the time.

Worrying about the theoretical amount you owe instead of the actual amount you have to pay is just dumb.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#424

Post by hellisothers » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

m11a wrote: post #386

hellisothers wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not planning for retirement in that you’re not even putting funds into a 401k or other retirement account? I get it if you’re strapped for cash but it sounds like you have the funds to save. This isn’t clever, it’s irresponsible especially given that just putting a little money away now literally pays dividends later.

I don't mean not putting in a 401k. The comment I was replying to was implying throwing $100k into a savings account is a good idea because you'll have a couple million when you're 63. I do not advocate throwing $100k into savings for retirement at 18. There's a difference between reasonable financial responsibility (401k, match pension contributions w/ employer, etc) and spending all your young years worrying about…

Ah great, I agree, there is a balance to strike

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#425

Post by snowwrestler » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:48 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #387

snowwrestler wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "huge number"? Rayiner offered a few anecdotes about a few people a few years out of college... he brought up AOC; I merely tried to highlight how silly it was to draw any kind of conclusion from (that) one person. I know the uselessness of humanities degrees is an article of faith among developers, but the data do not support it. > It’s also interesting that although it’s a popular target of those who insist that…

"Underemployment" is measured in terms of people getting jobs that "require a college degree." But that does not directly measure whether college is adding value: https://www.hbs.edu/managing-the-future-of-work/Documents/di... > For example, in 2015, 67% of production supervisor job postings asked for a college degree, while only 16% of employed production supervisors had one. When companies start requiring college d…

You have to be careful not to conflate degree inflation, which is about over-zealous filtering in an organization's hiring process, with college education and the personal benefits it confers upon the individual who receives it.

Put another way, the recipient of a bachelor's degree gets two benefits: 1) a pass through certain HR filters, and 2) the improvement of their personal knowledge and abilities.

The distinction matters because we can fix degree inflation where it happens: in HR. That's why HBS is writing about it. We don't need to deny the obvious benefits of post-secondary education to people, just to fix a problem with over-zealous HR filters. (Those aren't unique to college BTW--think of silly requirements like "10 years experience with React.")

> I think the fact that liberal arts majors have such a hard time getting a job out of college is an indication that college isn't actually adding value.

This would make sense if liberal arts majors had an unusually hard time getting a job out of college, but they don't. Here are some majors and their probability of underemployment in first job and 5 years out.

    Engineering               29% 18%
    Communication/Journalism  39% 24%
    Mathematics/Statistics    39% 26%
    Foreign Languages         43% 27%
    Physical Sciences         40% 27%
    English/Literature        45% 29%
    Visual/Performing Arts    45% 31%
    Biological/Biomedical     51% 35%

From study linked in article in my earlier comment:

https://www.burning-glass.com/wp-content/uploads/permanent_d...

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#426

Post by itronitron » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 5:49 AM UTC

gen220 wrote: post #354

itronitron wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So yeah, I graduated from a top-tier art school which had very high tuition but I also had considerable grants and scholarships so I was able to pay off my student loans in a few years after graduating working a blue-collar job. I experienced four years of group critiques, and really value that as an activity. Unfortunately very few people understand or can appreciate how directly that maps to software development. M…

I really wish we had something comparable to group critiques in my computer science/engineering program. I wholeheartedly agree that it’s an underrated form of education: it allows everyone to benefit from everyone else’s talents and experiences, whereas the traditional lecture format is limited to the talent and the experience of the instructor. I was really jealous of that aspect of my girlfriend’s education. Some…

I think some of the more recent 'design thinking' schools are coming close. A key element in critiques is that everyone has pretty much the same role (they are creating something and getting feedback on it) so no one is trying to game the system for personal career advancement.

It could be adapted to CS/E classes where students were creating something new and most Art professors could probably help run them. There is a definite discipline and culture to running good group critiques.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#427

Post by baking » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 6:09 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #292

baking wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest issue with it was that you are in the "too well-off to get aid but not well-off enough to pay cash" gap, then you should be expanding the number of schools you are applying too, not reducing. In-state and out-of-state public schools, and a wide mix of small to large private schools in both the "reach" and "safety" categories to see what kind of financial offers you get. With the caveat that if it turns out…

If cash is king you need to start busting your ass freshman year of high school. Four years of pushing it and you can net an easy scholarship that will take out a chunk of the cost, or even get a full ride and be able to go anywhere you'd like.

"full ride" "able to go anywhere you'd like"

Unless the one school that offers you a "full ride" is the one that you wanted to go to.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#428

Post by pnathan » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 6:16 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #182

pnathan wrote: post #112

> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,” That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about. I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay off in under 10 years without a miracle. I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well invo…

Public student loans have income based repayment. Assuming you go to a state school and don't live on campus, the debt isn't a big deal. And if you get into very top tier private school, the networking alone is definitely worth it.

> Public student loans have income based repayment. Assuming you go to a state school and don't live on campus, the debt isn't a big deal.

only for very specific programs, doing very specific work. I looked into it. it's not a general program - at least, when I was dealing with my 10s of thousands of dollars..

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#429

Post by lsc » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

hajile wrote: post #207

lsc wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some of my kids seem like they enjoy academics, but others do not. I'll be pushing the latter toward trade school. Average IBEW (electrical union) pay is about $20/hr for an apprentice and $33 for a journeyman. $40,000 to $66,000 with ZERO DEBT right out the gate is nothing to ignore (and that pay can easily double -- especially in your younger years -- if you're willing to travel and put in those extra hours). It s…

College doesn't make someone smart. College doesn't make someone choose to be productive. The decisions that lead to being smart and productive start early in childhood. Unfortunately, dollars spent on early education don't seem to have much of a correlation with success later in life.

So, I think about this a lot. I know a lot of really good sysadmins with no education; like of the people I consider really good sysadmins, close to half might not have degrees, and this is one of the reasons I equate my job to the trades. (I mean, along with the fact that our job is to create and maintain infrastructure so that other people can work) I know a fair number of software engineers with no formal education, though the proportion is a lot less than half. I know very few good electrical engineers who lack formal education. I don't know any good chemical engineers who don't have a formal education.

My own experience (I've tried at school several times. I'm currently enrolled in the computer information systems "competency based" degree at nau.edu, but I've tried a bunch of others) is that school is actually way more difficult than industry. You can't just be brilliant twice a month, as is my experience of industry; you have to show up and perform at 90% every day which seems impossibly brutal to me. I mean, this is probably a quirk of my own personality; I'm actually really good at coming in and dealing with disasters every now and again, but my consistency is... really pretty bad.

I mean, I personally think that a love of and respect for learning is fundamentally more important than education; but I also think that education isn't nothing. There are a lot of people who do a lot better with some formal education, and there are a whole lot of jobs, that as far as I can tell, are almost impossible to do well without a good formal education. I personally don't think I'd let a self-taught doctor hack on me if I had any other choice at all.

My personal opinion is that if there are any young people with the capacity to be good at those things that require an education who are prevented from doing those things because of money, our society has made a huge mistake, one that will cost us much money in the long term, just 'cause having those people perform at peak value is hugely valuable to society. Further, I think that the unwillingness, as a society, to pay for the education of young people evinces a lack of valuation of learning that might be an even bigger problem.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#430

Post by pnathan » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 6:48 AM UTC

SkyBelow wrote: post #188

pnathan wrote: post #112

> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,” That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about. I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay off in under 10 years without a miracle. I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well invo…

>I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. If you don't mind, can I ask some questions to expand upon this? First, does this count living expenses? Many students can save greatly living at home, but this requires going to a college near your home, for there to even been a college near your home, and decent enough relationship with the parents/guardian. If we don't cover room/board/etc. it…

These are my observations/opinions based on both graduate and undergrad school in the US.

(1) In this utopian world, college owned dorms would be part and parcel of the free college. This allows control of the costs rather than allowing landlords to profit off of the university. The US has massive issues with expensive housing, even around rural universities.

(2) I'd set the limit at, say, 6 years. 5 years isn't uncommon, 6 is rare, and 7 is .... extremely rare, and questionable for a full-time student... Generally speaking. I'd expect a 2.5 GPA or better.

I have no real interest in an unending "free ride". But I do want an educated citizenry without enormous debt burdens. I will shoulder the tax burden that I, a high-earning citizen, will have to pay out, in order to get an educated citizenry with an interest in taking risks. I think a lot of the lack of new businesses etc in the last 20 years can be directly traced to that. And on a more nuanced scale, I think the lack of a wide college education has reduced the discourse in the country (prior cheap college in the US was largely contingent on the Cold War and the GI bill; it's very complicated, but I do think it helped us collectively in the 50s-70s).

Anyway. I'm not per se drawing off of any other country's specific educational systems. I'm not personally fond of the West European systems I've looked at, although they do solve these issues to some level. The US has enormous resources and enormous capability.