To be able to support this, they're going to need to do some major overhaul of how add-on versioning works. As a Add-On developer ( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/font-finder/ ), I shudder at the thought of 10,000 different addons needing to keep having their support version incremented w/ each upcoming release.
Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
51–60 of 115 posts
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Chrome auto-updates and generally always looks the same. I can't imagine why anyone -- users or developers -- would care what version number it's up to.
My theory is that they wanted to avoid PHB types saying 'Internet Explorer is at version 9 - this new Google browser, only version 3? Is it ready for the enterprise?'.
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#53Sounds like the main story is that they're redefining what a major version number means a la Chrome. Chrome's numbers are not in the same scale as FF and IE too, of course. Users can't tell the difference between Chrome 6 and 7 like one can distinguish FF 2 and 3, or IE 6 and 7. I wonder, though, if Google was just trying to catch IE in version number with Chrome and once it's at 10, they'll stop increasing it so rap…
It seems like the Firefox 4 project simply got out of control, there was no clear cut-off, features were added willy-nilly throughout the beta process, and the browser (for a while) seemed stuck in perpetual development. It doesn't look good, and doesn't make Mozilla look like they can ship without the temptation to add more or tweak more.
Fx1.5 and 2 both had two beta releases. Fx3, 3.5, and 3.6 had five beta releases each. Fx4 is scheduled for at least twelve betas.
They need a significant change in their project management, and setting a fast-paced roadmap is probably an aspirational way to force themselves to ship.
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#54Sounds like the main story is that they're redefining what a major version number means a la Chrome. Chrome's numbers are not in the same scale as FF and IE too, of course. Users can't tell the difference between Chrome 6 and 7 like one can distinguish FF 2 and 3, or IE 6 and 7. I wonder, though, if Google was just trying to catch IE in version number with Chrome and once it's at 10, they'll stop increasing it so rap…
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#55I'm pretty excited about Account Manager, the identity management feature, that's scheduled for Firefox 5. It has the potential to make the web both more secure and simpler to use. Usually those goals are opposing. Of course, the biggest obstacle will be getting people to add support for the feature to their site.
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#56To be able to support this, they're going to need to do some major overhaul of how add-on versioning works. As a Add-On developer ( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/font-finder/ ), I shudder at the thought of 10,000 different addons needing to keep having their support version incremented w/ each upcoming release.
Maybe it's time for Mozilla to move to using minVersion only, like Chrome does.
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#57One subtle message I got out of this: Web applications are a good choice. Stick with it.
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#58It looks like Windows 7 64-bit will be officially supported with FF5, too. You're kidding, right? Do they REALLY not support the fastest growing OS version + platform combo? OEMs are finally paying attention to 64-bit computing, and Windows 7 has been replacing Vista like wildfire.... and FF is still two releases away from official Windows 7 64-bit support? EDIT: Oops. Seems stupid Aol/Weblogs/Switched/DowloadSquad (…
Firefox is far from becoming "more and more irrelevant". Just because you've switched to an alternate browser doesn't mean the rest of the world has. Chrome may be incrementally gaining some share, but it's mostly at the expense of IE. Firefox has almost 25% of the market, while Chrome is 5%.
I've been using Chrome / Chromium exclusively since its release, primarily due to the simple, uncluttered UI and blazing speed. It was a breath of fresh air, and I switched readily.
But something changed with the recent Firefox 4 betas. The browser feels fast, again, and the UI seems more reasonable. I find Panorama useful. And slowly, Firefox is winning me back. In time, I think it may win back other developers, too. And if it does, I could easily see a fairly stable equilibrium developing between the two browsers.
Firefox needed the competition from Chrome, and in many ways, it's starting to meet that challenge.
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#59Sounds like the main story is that they're redefining what a major version number means a la Chrome. Chrome's numbers are not in the same scale as FF and IE too, of course. Users can't tell the difference between Chrome 6 and 7 like one can distinguish FF 2 and 3, or IE 6 and 7. I wonder, though, if Google was just trying to catch IE in version number with Chrome and once it's at 10, they'll stop increasing it so rap…
I think Mozilla is also aware of the problematic perception that this particular release generated among onlookers. They've already spun 10 betas and are going to make at least two more betas before the release candidates. It seems like the Firefox 4 project simply got out of control, there was no clear cut-off, features were added willy-nilly throughout the beta process, and the browser (for a while) seemed stuck in…
Netscape all over again?
Re: Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 to be released before the end of 2011
#60Sounds like the main story is that they're redefining what a major version number means a la Chrome. Chrome's numbers are not in the same scale as FF and IE too, of course. Users can't tell the difference between Chrome 6 and 7 like one can distinguish FF 2 and 3, or IE 6 and 7. I wonder, though, if Google was just trying to catch IE in version number with Chrome and once it's at 10, they'll stop increasing it so rap…
Anthony Laforge, the Google program manager in charge of Chrome releases, was kind enough to give a talk at Mozilla's all-hands meeting in December. He gave a version of this presentation: http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/11/google-chrome-release-cycle...
Each Chrome release is in development for 12 weeks. There are always two 12-week cycles in progress at once, staggered by 6 weeks. So users on the stable channel see a new version every 6 weeks.
This has benefits much more profound than just a large number before the dot. For example, developers working on new features actually feel less schedule pressure. If a feature misses the deadline for version N, the team knows they'll have another chance just six weeks later for version N+1. And for users, the browser becomes more like a web app. Do you know what version of GMail you use? Do you notice every time they add fix bugs or improve performance on Google Maps? No - every time you open the app, you simply have the latest version.
Laforge mentioned some things about Chrome development that make this work:
- Silent background updates. When an update is available on your channel, Chrome downloads it in the background and installs it. The next time you launch the browser, it is running the new version and deletes the old one. Because of this, the majority of Chrome users are up-to-date within days of each release.
- Feature switches. Development is done on trunk, but each work-in-progress feature can be disabled with a switch (either a preference, a build option, or a command-line flag). This lets developers work for several cycles before turning a feature on for the stable channel. It also lets product management disable a new feature if bugs are found during beta, without changing any code. Web startup folks might recognize this as the "always ship trunk" pattern used by sites like Flickr: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1463751
- No support for old versions. Instead of deciding which "version" to install, Chrome users decide which "channel" to follow. If you are a developer and want to test upcoming changes, use the canary or dev channels. If you want a more tested browser, use the beta or stable channels. New features roll out to each channel in turn. If you are on one of these four channels, you get updates. If you are not, then you don't. (Just like you can't choose to run an old version of GMail or Google Reader.)
Mozilla is just starting to talk about the new roadmap and how to achieve it. Chrome's experience is useful, and it was really helpful of Laforge to share it with us. But we're different both technically and organizationally from Chrome, so just blindly copying what they do would not be a good idea. The wiki shows a plan for releases every 3 months (not every 1.5 months like Chrome). We use Mercurial with long-lived project branches (unlike Chrome which uses Subversion and does all development on trunk). And our product differs in some important ways, like the ABI for binary extensions. (Even non-binary Firefox extensions may reach deeper into the browser internals than Chrome extensions.)
But we do think that the benefits for users (more frequent improvements to the browser) and developers (more predictable schedule, fewer release delays) are worth pursuing. There are benefits for web developers too, since it reduces the time from when we start implementing new web-facing features (like IndexedDB, or CSS3 transitions) to when you can deploy them to more of your users.