The Two Kinds of Moderate • Hacker News Board

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#271

Post by CameronNemo » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #201

robbrown451 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. In the absence of first past the post voting (and its tendency to force people into parties to avoid losing to people who do [1], and for those parties to coalesce into two dominant, equally balance parties), there is still a polarity of, say, liberal and conservative. At least in the original meanings of the terms, which has to do with whether you go toward new things or prefer traditions. But under FPTP,…

And more importantly, FPTP doesn't allow for middle ground. If you are in the middle, you can't get elected, because neither party would nominate you. I'm not sure that's true, at least in the UK, when one of the established two parties moves to the centre ground they tend to win. Moving away from the centre ground is how they lose.

The typical pattern is starting at the edge during the primary then shifting to the center during the general. Making it back to the center is indeed a good path toward success, but makes commitments during the primary much less credible and give the impression that the candidate is just saying what will get them elected. Overall this is terrible for voter trust in elected officials.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#272

Post by tptacek » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

throwlaplace wrote: post #261

tptacek wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have just the tiniest sliver of Paul Graham's innate valence with HN, but it's enough to make me pretty empathetic about this problem: there is a pretty strong chance that if I blog something relatively superficial (just because it's on my mind), someone will submit it here. A throwaway I wrote about Javascript Cryptography has been on the front page here something like 5 times, and I've felt like I had to apologiz…

i'm not being obtuse but why don't you simply unpublish the post? whatever the reason is (whatever the tangible/intangible benefits conferred upon you for having it remain up) obligates you in direct proportion. i write math notes for myself that i only publish to a public github repo. the repo is public because it lends me some credibility to have it on display that i study math. if there's an error in them and some…

I don't own the post anymore and can't unpublish it. But even if I could: it's annoying that I can't just post my shitty first drafts of things to some random website and not have them get periodically featured on a huge, busy community. That's what blogs are for. I have a backlog of blog posts, about a dozen entries long, none of which are published because I don't feel prepared to defend them here. I guess you can say "good, you have a personal journal". I don't feel great about that.

(And, for the nth time, I have just a teeny tiny sample of the problem Paul Graham has! It's not like what I write is all that popular. Paul Graham has a rabid fan base here.)

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#273

Post by throwlaplace » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

jasaloo wrote: post #263

What a delightfully garbage take! Also: “The defining quality of an ideologue, whether on the left or the right, is to acquire one's opinions in bulk. You don't get to pick and choose.” PG has clearly never encountered two leftists in the same room together. We argue on critical issues more than a thanksgiving dinner table.

i'll never understand people's preoccupation with other people's ideas on things it is known those people are not experts on.

paul graham has a phd in computer science. he is a successful startup founder and vc. that is the extent of what i'm interested in his opinion on.

if a famous political theorist started opining on the organization of software or product/market fit or angel investing how many people here would take them seriously?

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#274

Post by tptacek » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

zer00eyz wrote: post #269

tptacek wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to be careful not to criticize the post on its own terms. Paul Graham should totally write things like this on his own site! It sucks having to be careful about what you because of what other people will do with it, and the weird debates you'll be forced into as a result. I'm just saying, to the extent this post is political, it's political in a totally routine way that doesn't clear the "interestingness" bar…

> Paul Graham should totally write things like this on his own site! He sure can, but having a platform and competence in one area doesn't mean your skill applies to another. This whole article is a fascinating example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. The idea, of two kinds of moderates is interesting. The framing is, at best weak and at worst very flawed, shallow and a gross oversimplification. The shots at the left, a…

This comment is exactly what I mean about the post being off-topic for the site.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#275

Post by zjaffee » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #109

Ah yes, the old "No one thinks for themselves except people like me" argument. > openly being an accidental moderate requires the most courage of all If he thinks that having middle-of-the-road opinions requires the most courage of them all, he has had an extraordinarily easily life in which he is used to be hailed as brilliant. It seems as though due to his comfortable position in life he has never faced any signifi…

100% agree with everything you've written here. I'd also add that there is absolutely no such thing as an accidental moderate in a way that warrants any sort of prideful thinking.

Additionally, there are political world views that are often described as moderate, but are legitimately their own political world view. Namely, in the US political system, the democrats are a big tent party of liberals and social democrats with clear ideological differences between the new democratic caucus and the progressive caucus. Those liberals are not moderate, they're liberals which are much closer in line to conservatives ideologically as they both support free market capitalism.

Anyone who is an "accidental moderate" in a truer sense of the word has never spent any time thinking about politics in any sort of unified sort of way. Politicians should have a both a unified theory of change and a broader political framework for which they rationalize their decisions. While many people describe the Clinton's or Obama as being moderates, they are not moderates, they are liberals, which just happens to be it's own fully unified political theory to the right of socialism and social democrats and to the left of conservatism, nationalism, and fascism.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#276

Post by CameronNemo » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #161

CameronNemo wrote: post #99

Right and left are arbitrary constructs necessitated by a first past the post voting system. Change the electoral system and you will see much more diverse and meaningful party affiliation. >The effect of a system based on plurality voting is that the larger parties, and parties with more geographically concentrated support, gain a disproportionately large share of seats, while smaller parties with more evenly distri…

Right and left are arbitrary constructs necessitated by a first past the post voting system. Change the electoral system and you will see much more diverse and meaningful party affiliation. Diverse, yes. Meaningful, maybe. Look at Israel right now. 17 parties with seats in the Knesset, none with over 30%, and, after two elections, still no agreement on Prime Minister. Third election coming up.

I agree that parliamentary systems make it difficult to form a government, but I disagree that those 30 parties are less meaningful than major parties in the US or UK. Each one represents a unique community within Israel, reflecting the diversity and disunity of the nation itself.

Also I would argue Netanyahu failing to form a government two times is a good sign for Israel. That man is divisive and harmful.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#277

Post by sgustard » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

glangdale wrote: post #216

tptacek wrote: post #206

It just can't be the case that this kind of content, which would never ordinarily survive on the front page if written by someone else, has a place here simply because Paul Graham wrote it. I say this as a moderate, of the accidental variety, myself! But if this would get shot down if it appeared in The Atlantic or The New Republic --- and it would, and should --- it shouldn't get a pass just because Harj Taggar and…

The PG quote that leads the essay on the topic of PG's extra-curricular rangings ("Dabblers and Blowhards") seems apposite: 'I actually worry a lot that as I get "popular" I'll be able to get away with saying stupider stuff than I would have dared say before. This sort of thing happens to a lot of people, and I would really like to avoid it' https://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm Edit: the essay its…

There are two kinds of people in the world. Nuanced people that I personally know, and some strawman that I just made up.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#278

Post by throwlaplace » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #272

throwlaplace wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm not being obtuse but why don't you simply unpublish the post? whatever the reason is (whatever the tangible/intangible benefits conferred upon you for having it remain up) obligates you in direct proportion. i write math notes for myself that i only publish to a public github repo. the repo is public because it lends me some credibility to have it on display that i study math. if there's an error in them and some…

I don't own the post anymore and can't unpublish it. But even if I could: it's annoying that I can't just post my shitty first drafts of things to some random website and not have them get periodically featured on a huge, busy community. That's what blogs are for. I have a backlog of blog posts, about a dozen entries long, none of which are published because I don't feel prepared to defend them here. I guess you can…

i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt since you generally style yourself as voice of reason on hn.

that being said you're not addressing my challenge, that this thing

>That's what blogs are for.

isn't actually the case.

take for example your characterization of this kind of miscellany

>shitty first drafts of things

can you name another medium/form/forum where authors publish "shitty first drafts"? why is blogging different? because it is ephemeral and has 0 mass by virtue of being digital?

on the contrary take something like twitter, for example, and compare its relative weight, ephemerality, inchoateness to your blog posts; tweets are very much fair game for all any kind of engagement.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#279

Post by invalidOrTaken » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #206

It just can't be the case that this kind of content, which would never ordinarily survive on the front page if written by someone else, has a place here simply because Paul Graham wrote it. I say this as a moderate, of the accidental variety, myself! But if this would get shot down if it appeared in The Atlantic or The New Republic --- and it would, and should --- it shouldn't get a pass just because Harj Taggar and…

Why not?

If the Atlantic is so damn smart, why don't I give a shit about their forum? And why don't you?

Maybe PG's essays wouldn't survive on the front page (all glory be to the masses who bestow their wisdom on us by voting!) if they were written by someone else. But they weren't written by someone else.

"Guys! You guys are voting all wrong!" feels lame. Sorry?

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#280

Post by zjaffee » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

IIAOPSW wrote: post #256

asdfman123 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tons of people out there "can't join any tribe" because their belief systems are sufficiently different than those of people around them, and the way this is written suggests that it's almost a novel idea to Paul Graham. Has anyone cornered him and beaten him up for having moderate beliefs? And having beliefs across the political spectrum hardly makes him novel. I'm probably a classic left leaning liberal. I'm in fav…

>Do I need to invent a special term for myself? No. yes. Unless you don't want to ever convince anyone of any of your views. You haven't understood the "intentional moderate". Contrarianism is a shortcut to the respect owed to skeptics. The purpose of the intentional moderate is to portray themselves as just like you: "a complicated individual". But unlike you they really aren't. Its a ruse. There is no substantive r…

I think in the context of the current presidential race, Amy Klobuchar could be closest to described as an intentional moderate. Namely someone who focuses on simply just changing laws at the cost of any sort of deeper ideological belief, at least with regards to how she frames her view point rather than by defending her proposals within their own merit she focuses on the compromise aspect.

Biden on the other hand is clearly a traditional liberal, not a social democrat, socialist, or progressive. At the same time, George H.W. Bush, or even Mitt Romney, are also a liberals in the same sense, with both politicians being pulled in different directions because of where their party currently stands. This sort of view point isn't moderate in any sense of the word, a liberal, who believes in free markets and has a globalist world view is a unified political theory for how things should be done.

However, a person who is an accidental moderate themselves, who never developed their own or latched onto any unified broad political theory, would tend to support candidates like the above because the American political system tends towards liberal capitalism as being the political center.