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The Two Kinds of Moderate

paulgraham.com

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Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#211

Post by username90 »

youdontknowtho wrote: post #124
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think something changed in the past 10-15, you're falling for GOP propaganda. You think that Democrats have not moved in the past 10-15 years? You think that the idea that they have is merely Republican propaganda? I think you haven't been paying attention. Or maybe you were paying too much attention. 15 years ago, AOC wasn't even old enough to vote. Were there Democrats in the House who held the same positi…

I'm trying to understand how you see Republican positions changing over time as well. From the perspective of policy or cultural issues. If I grant your point about how the last 15 years has seen a resurgent left, something that I'm stoked about, could you explain a little about how you've seen the republicans change over 10 to 20 years?

Republicans just lowered taxes for the working class and increased it for the management class. How is that typical capitalist right wing? It was basically tailor made to hurt the coastal elites since only there do a significant number earn enough to get the extra taxes.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#212

Post by tyre »

tptacek wrote: post #206

It just can't be the case that this kind of content, which would never ordinarily survive on the front page if written by someone else, has a place here simply because Paul Graham wrote it. I say this as a moderate, of the accidental variety, myself! But if this would get shot down if it appeared in The Atlantic or The New Republic --- and it would, and should --- it shouldn't get a pass just because Harj Taggar and…

strong agree.

This isn't a nuanced or deeply explored post on the topic of moderates. Same as the previous post that was on here this week or last. Name brand carries a lot.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#213

Post by narag »

ineedasername wrote: post #198

I understand the concept of intentional moderate as he explains it, but I honestly have never met anyone who formulates their beliefs that way, who deliberately tries to find a middle point on the spectrum regardless of the specific details. Of course that could be my social circle, which is why it would be a lot more constructive if Graham had given a bit of concrete example on this. Especially given that just about…

I know a lot of people that proudly says that virtue is in the middle. They think that the middle is a definite entity and extremes are caused by some flaw in character or interests.

I'm usually uncomfortable talking politics because I have "radical" ideas from both sides. I believe in public healthcare and education for good reasons, mostly experience and observation. For most everything else I could be defined as libertarian. I'm also pretty skeptic of decentralized power: municipalities tend to create idiotic regulation and pork barrel politics, I'd rather have laws passed by national parliament.

So I can tell you exactly where a conversation with intentional moderates go astray, wheter they call it that to themselves or not.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#214

Post by m_ke »

slashdev wrote: post #195
asdfman123 wrote: post #109

Ah yes, the old "No one thinks for themselves except people like me" argument. > openly being an accidental moderate requires the most courage of all If he thinks that having middle-of-the-road opinions requires the most courage of them all, he has had an extraordinarily easily life in which he is used to be hailed as brilliant. It seems as though due to his comfortable position in life he has never faced any signifi…

As an accidental moderate myself, it does take courage. You don't belong on the right or the left. I'm too liberal for conservatives, and too conservative for liberals. I'm not even part of my parent's political or religious tribe. An accidental moderate means being tribeless. It doesn't surprise me that those kinds of people would be more impressive, since anyone who describes themselves as right or left, democrat o…

I'd love to hear what your liberal and conservative leanings are and why they make you so brave.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#215

Post by yongjik »

hindsightbias wrote: post #175
aspaceman wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet Hillary and Bernie are Marxists today. Huh? Not even a little bit. Neither one has quoted a single like of Marx, ever. Bernie identifies as a democratic socialist, which aint Marxist. The conflation is misinformed as hell.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_senior_thesis What more does a moderate need to know?

> In 1969, $(person) wrote a 92-page senior thesis ...

A real moderate would be immediately suspicious, regardless of political stance, of any claim that a thesis paper written 50 years ago was somehow relevant to the same person's current political position.

Besides, I thought colleges were supposed to be a bastion of free ideas where people could say controversial opinions?

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#216

Post by glangdale »

tptacek wrote: post #206

It just can't be the case that this kind of content, which would never ordinarily survive on the front page if written by someone else, has a place here simply because Paul Graham wrote it. I say this as a moderate, of the accidental variety, myself! But if this would get shot down if it appeared in The Atlantic or The New Republic --- and it would, and should --- it shouldn't get a pass just because Harj Taggar and…

The PG quote that leads the essay on the topic of PG's extra-curricular rangings ("Dabblers and Blowhards") seems apposite:

'I actually worry a lot that as I get "popular" I'll be able to get away with saying stupider stuff than I would have dared say before. This sort of thing happens to a lot of people, and I would really like to avoid it'

https://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm

Edit: the essay itself seems... not very perceptive. Notably, putting things on a continuum between far left and far right and imagining that everything is somehow a process of picking out options on this continuum seems amazingly reductive.

Further, the dig on "intentional moderates" also seems to miss the point that many intentional moderates might well be seeking to function politically - so picking out moderate positions in the range of public opinion might be a case of keeping your powder dry and being effective, not compulsively trying to be a moderate because it's nifty. This was very much the case with the way Obama analyzed his own politics (turning the huge ship, very slowly). Not saying I agree with that but the assessment of "intentional moderates" really feels like a cartoon.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#217

Post by k__ »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #189
k__ wrote: post #137

[flagged]

> Communists, anarchists, anti-imperialists, anti-germans. The only thing they have in common is that they all despise like the misanthropic tendencies of the right. Here's a working theory I'd love to discuss: Having friends all over the political spectrum, I think some policy topics reveal differences in how most left-leaning / right-leaning people understand human nature. My conservative friends generally hold tha…

I don't really know who is wrong or right.

I don't like the base assumption of conservatives that "humans tend toward laziness and greed" as if it was a law of nature. I think the point is more that people want to get the most out of the system (money, meaning, fun, etc) with the least amount of work (they don't like to do) necessary. In the systems conservatives have in mind, the outlooks are so bleak that doing nothing and sitting at home seems like the logical next step when giving people an UBI or something.

On the other hand I don't like the base assumption of leftists that capitalism and money is the root of all evil. Money is just a way to make "value" more tangible, the problem is that people simply don't value stuff that should be valued. This has nothing to do with capitalism or money, those are just the metrics that show what's wrong with our value systems.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#218

Post by jturpin »

asdfman123 wrote: post #109

Ah yes, the old "No one thinks for themselves except people like me" argument. > openly being an accidental moderate requires the most courage of all If he thinks that having middle-of-the-road opinions requires the most courage of them all, he has had an extraordinarily easily life in which he is used to be hailed as brilliant. It seems as though due to his comfortable position in life he has never faced any signifi…

> I cannot imagine how you'd come to the conclusion that holding moderate viewpoints requires any real courage at all.

Expressing moderate opinions on the internet will cause a lot of people of accusing you of being a "fence-sitter" or siding with "the enemy", as well as accusations that you are a coward by people who are agitated that the opinions they hold in such high regard are not shared and are even challenged. It is inviting vitriol from people highly polarized on either side.

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#219

Post by aspaceman »

hindsightbias wrote: post #175
aspaceman wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet Hillary and Bernie are Marxists today. Huh? Not even a little bit. Neither one has quoted a single like of Marx, ever. Bernie identifies as a democratic socialist, which aint Marxist. The conflation is misinformed as hell.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_senior_thesis What more does a moderate need to know?

Do you have a point or just a pointless link?

EDIT: Being associated with someone who at one point worked with communists 50 years ago makes you a modern day Marxist? Do these words mean anything to people anymore?

Re: The Two Kinds of Moderate

#220

Post by jamiequint »

tyre wrote: post #212
tptacek wrote: post #206

It just can't be the case that this kind of content, which would never ordinarily survive on the front page if written by someone else, has a place here simply because Paul Graham wrote it. I say this as a moderate, of the accidental variety, myself! But if this would get shot down if it appeared in The Atlantic or The New Republic --- and it would, and should --- it shouldn't get a pass just because Harj Taggar and…

strong agree. This isn't a nuanced or deeply explored post on the topic of moderates. Same as the previous post that was on here this week or last. Name brand carries a lot.

The fact that the argument is not complex does not mean it is not deeply explored.
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