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Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

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Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, that implies there's some sort of authority - legal or otherwise - that determines "socially valuable." Not necessarily. I agree that having values dictated by fiat is a recipe for disaster - such arrangements are bound to get corrupted over time. But on the other end of the spectrum, there is some sense of social value - a sense in which e.g. garbage collectors, firemen and doctors do more socially valuable…

Yes, but even these particular values embody subjective urbanist bias. For example, some towns run very effective volunteer fire departments, where the "payment" seems to be mutual aid and masculine pride. In some towns garbage disposal is mostly burn barrels and composting, which is bad for the environment but is not a service which can fail. And personally, having the privilege of education in biology, I feel like…

Huh, you're right about my "subjective urbanist bias", I didn't even notice it in my thinking. Thanks!

WRT. doctors vs. drug/diagnostic equipment manufacturers, a good point, but here I specifically picked my example - public health and safety vs. entertainment - to maximize the contrast.

> Perhaps the concept of "social value" is only useful in the context of societies small enough so that all participants can agree on values?

I think there might be a correlation between community size and the ease of agreeing on what is social value, but I wouldn't discount it for larger societies or even humanity as a whole. Humans do have a lot in common, and I feel you can get far in ranking jobs by social value by going along the gradient of reduction of suffering. And I say "jobs", not "professions", because IMO, professions are almost orthogonal to social value. For example, in terms of the social value, I'd rank a programmer working on diagnostic equipment > programmer working on a videogame > programmer working on advertising tech. The skillset and productivity may be similar or even the same, but these jobs occupy three very different point on the "making the world a better place" scale.

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas Piketty? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...

That came out in 2013, and he's a man. Mariana Mazzucato https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29502362-the-value-of-ev...

I considered that perhaps there was a misremembered gender, and the ending of Piketty can be interpreted as Italian sounding, and it's the most talked about economic book of the last 10 years or so.

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#63

> I think we can have a society that rewards people for productive or otherwise socially valuable contributions while also taking care of the poor and those who can’t work. I find "socially valuable contributions" to be a disturbing phrase. First, that implies there's some sort of authority - legal or otherwise - that determines "socially valuable." Second, quite often society is wrong in what "it" values or finds po…

> that implies there's some sort of authority - legal or otherwise - that determines "socially valuable." Well, we already have a system that rewards “valuable” contributions: Money. Just a lot of people don’t like that system much, as it turns out that system places little value on childcare, elder care and teaching; and huge value on executives who are fired for sexual harassment. Which doesn’t line up very precise…

yes, money is the mechanism we've defaulted to for measuring value, but economists admit that our economic systems, even capitalism, don't yet (properly) price everything that's valuable to humans (as you note).

a charitable reading of the parent comment would find they're mainly against centralization of authority rather than how to value intangibles or how to engineer fairness into economic systems.

but their first assumption that "'socially valuable contributions' [...] implies there's some sort of authority" is wholly unsupported. capitalism, for example, highly values rational resource distribution, but there is no central authority dictating that distribution.

in any case, the crux of the problem is that with concentration of wealth comes concentration of power. we're all very wary of concentrations of power, for good reason. we need to decouple that pairing for a more stable and balanced society.

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#64
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great childcare and elder care is very expensive It's hard even to find a way to buy "Great childcare and elder care". Mostly you end up paying as much as such a thing should cost but the money just goes to people who "administer" minimum wage workers delivering care that is mediocre at best.

I ran through the numbers when my kid started in childcare. It turned out there wasn't really a grand bureaucratic conspiracy. Instead, mainly labor is just really expensive. When your kids are still infants, at childcare centers, the caretaker:child ratio can get as high as 1:2. Those caretakers gross nearly $30k/year plus benefits & other employer costs such as FICA & Medicare.

$30k/year is not a lot of money - definitely not enough to raise your own kids on

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#65

> I think we can have a society that rewards people for productive or otherwise socially valuable contributions while also taking care of the poor and those who can’t work. I find "socially valuable contributions" to be a disturbing phrase. First, that implies there's some sort of authority - legal or otherwise - that determines "socially valuable." Second, quite often society is wrong in what "it" values or finds po…

First, that implies there's some sort of authority - legal or otherwise - that determines "socially valuable." Are literally saying we should live a society without either values or institutions that make judgements about values? Right now, the justice system, the zoning system and the operations of private foundations, and beyond are engaging in leadership that makes value judgements about what is socially valuable.…

> Are [you] literally saying we should live a society without either values or institutions that make judgements about values?

No, I did not say that literally or figuratively.

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#66
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that implies there's some sort of authority - legal or otherwise - that determines "socially valuable." Well, we already have a system that rewards “valuable” contributions: Money. Just a lot of people don’t like that system much, as it turns out that system places little value on childcare, elder care and teaching; and huge value on executives who are fired for sexual harassment. Which doesn’t line up very precise…

Great childcare and elder care is very expensive and the people who do these jobs well are, in my experience, quite well compensated relative to other jobs available to them.

That this is even arguable, I think, makes the OPs point.

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#67
post #5

How would "productivity" be measured? And who would measure it? Assuming that additional government bureaucracy would be created for this (noble) purpose, what guarantee would we have that their decisions would be any more "rational" or "efficient" than the so-called "free market" system that currently exists in the US for determining salaries? This is not a criticism of the author's underlying arguments, just a ques…

Heck, even as a software developer, which HN heavily skews to, how would we measure productivity? Many fields are very creatively driven, it's incredibly difficult to put a number on it. Lines of code? That was shown to be a total failure years ago. Jira tickets closed? Some tickets are much harder than others. Hours of butt in seat? Well, sadly that still seems to be a bit in vongue, but is thankfully dying out. Vlu…

Within a company, revenue/person, weighted by one or more of:

salary

Number of colleagues performing the same function

Percentage of revenue due to a department

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#68
post #60
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Relative wealth buys you status, position > pecking order Some of this can't really be fixed: the top 10% of status only has room for 10% of the people, by definition. The pecking order, by definition, orders people. > and power in society. This seems like a better focus. How much extra power you gain by being on top varies a great deal between different societies (including earlier and later versions of any one co…

As we've moved towards greater wealth inequality, it is also argued that we've moved towards wealth having greater access to power. (Citizens United, one dollar one vote, decline of unions, etc) You can go after wealth inequality, or you can go after the power-wealth connection. I'm not sure which is easier.

I'm not sure these connections are as clear as you seem to take them to be. I guess I should cite PG instead of re-typing... maybe we're still unwinding the world of WWII, which produces lots of correlated changes [1]. Maybe inequality is more about technology than tax laws [2].

[1] http://paulgraham.com/re.html [2] http://paulgraham.com/ineq.html

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#69
post #18

Ok, we just ignore bunch of people who don't give a damn about being productive. Bunch of people who don't give a damn about society. Bunch of people who don't give a damn about anything. For me biggest problem with this interview is ... not everyone wants to be productive, not everyone wants to have a new car, not everyone wants to have an education. Guess what, society still has to care about those people and still…

[deleted]

Re: Valuing Productivity, Not Profession, Could Reduce U.S. Inequality

#70
post #11

It remains very frustrating watching people organise against inequality as the evil of this era. Inequality isn't worth railing against and the focus of all this attention should be on living standards. If everyone doubles their living standards over 10 years, absolute inequality rises (there is always going to be someone with no wealth/income because they want to live that way, so the absolute gap in wealth increase…

Economic power is leveraged into political power. This power is used to maintain the status quo in favor of the currently economically powerful through regulatory capture, patronage, and increasingly outright corruption.

We cannot remain an egalitarian democracy if economic power continues to concentrate as it has, regardless of median living standards.

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