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Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

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271–280 of 293 posts

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#271

> The dream of some administrators is a university where every student is a model student, adhering to disciplined patterns of behavior that are intimately quantified, surveilled and analyzed An appropriate dream for a college administrator. But a travesty for creators, entrepreneurs and groundbreaking scientists. I’d be curious. Would these same administrators object to their timeliness being similarly measured? Qua…

Universities are now obsolete if you are an inventor, scientist, entrpreneur, etc. One can be more successful and better allocate time outside a university at this point, than in the rigidly retarded academic environment (which holds people back from true discovery and learning).

Good luck being hired for a staff scientist job without any degree.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#272
post #49

Not sure if this is still the case or not but at Maryland circa. 2007-2010 it was school policy that no class could have attendance factored into the grade. If you wanted to skip every class and only show up for exams, that was your choice. Privacy implications aside, I feel that this should be the case everywhere since college is effectively a business transaction. What you decide to do with the product after you've…

I teach in political science and I require regular attendance as part of one's grade. Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade. Why? My classes are typically small, under 15 students, and are heavily discussion dependent. Engendering open discussion between students, as opposed to top-down lecturing, has resulted in keeping students engaged and actively learning i…

Speaking as a student who 'grew up' through these classes in highschool and college, I grew to detest them. Collaborative learning is great in a study session environment where everyone is a willing and eager participant by virtue of taking time to study at a certain time and place outside of class requirements.

Make class mandatory and even speaking in discussions mandatory, and you end up with a lot of disengaged and annoyed people reiterating the same points just to get the participation grade up. To me that isn't a quality discussion, and therefore a waste of my time and tuition. People rarely get to the meat of a concept in those discussions, if at all, without the teacher jumping in and spelling out the entire point. IMO, better to just lecture and spell out more points, and leave the discussions for the optional study or review sessions attended by the most motivated students.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#273
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach in political science and I require regular attendance as part of one's grade. Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade. Why? My classes are typically small, under 15 students, and are heavily discussion dependent. Engendering open discussion between students, as opposed to top-down lecturing, has resulted in keeping students engaged and actively learning i…

Totally makes sense. Seminar style classes should have attendance factored in, but not by “did you attend” but by “did you contribute to the converstion?”. (And you shouldn’t use an app to track them. )

These classes end up feeling unproductive for me. By mandating attendance and contribution, you end up getting the entire class raising their hand to reiterate the same point and get their participation mark for the day. People who are actually engaged with the material enough to formulate a new point are stifled. By the end of class only maybe 10% of the discussion ends up being worthy, the rest a waste by this middle school participation exercise that rewards noise and length equally to a well worded argument.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#274

Just wanted to chime in here- I'm an undergraduate student at a major state university in the US, but I've also built a (small) start-up in edtech. I condemn schools that are using techniques like Bluetooth beacons to track attendance, but I can say it's definitely not the norm. The vast majority of schools use pure software solutions (apps like Top Hat) to track attendance (if they choose to do so.) These typically…

What if the student does not have a cellphone?

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#276
Caltech and other top-tier schools (MIT, Princeton, Berkeley, Chicago, etc.) won't have the problems this was described as addressing, namely students who are at the school but don't care about getting the education. It makes sense that "student-athletes" were the original targets- having a majority focus on sports instead of scholastics has been a real problem in schools with strong NCAA men's programs.

There's another background problem here: young adults being given the assumption that they need to install someone else's nanny on their own phone. In the work world, if your employer needs you to use an app on a device, they need to pay for the device- there is no way they can force you to spend your own money on their business requirements. (Unless your employment contract says you need to maintain a smartphone or similar, I've never seen that though.) I have a feeling that carrying school apps on your phone will erode that understanding.

And this app sounds like a nice hacking target. I won't elaborate any doubts about the app security or the backend service security, let's just see what happens.

Very likely, the schools that are prone to having the problems will institute this more and add more institutional conformity while the schools that aren't won't. The students that go to these institutions will assume more background surveillance while the students to go to better schools will be free of it.

If I were back in school I'd probably just give up the attendance points. But I didn't go to a school that was likely to use this

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#277

Due to what we know of history, universities who deploy this type of system will clearly not be the melting pots of tomorrow's leaders, geniuses, and world changers. Neither do I see how this helps a university's bottom line. To me this seems only like a university-killing move, by forcing many talented folks to non-campus ways of learning - or other institutions that respect diversity.

Yep, I am already a non-academic mathematics researcher. Pursuing the degree and putting up with the toxic university environment is not worth it.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#278
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness though, thinking by enforcing attendance you improve outcomes is a misreading of the data. Sure, when students attend classes, they tend to do better... when the choice to attend is without consequences . Once you make it mandatory, there's a good chance it will cease to be an effective predictor of outcomes, and it may even negatively harm outcomes (classrooms behave differently when attendance is mandat…

I think this is something that is understood by a lot of people at universities, but the overlap between these people and the people writing checks is slim.

Presumably it's the people writing checks at universities that are making the decisions though.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#279
post #49

Not sure if this is still the case or not but at Maryland circa. 2007-2010 it was school policy that no class could have attendance factored into the grade. If you wanted to skip every class and only show up for exams, that was your choice. Privacy implications aside, I feel that this should be the case everywhere since college is effectively a business transaction. What you decide to do with the product after you've…

I teach in political science and I require regular attendance as part of one's grade. Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade. Why? My classes are typically small, under 15 students, and are heavily discussion dependent. Engendering open discussion between students, as opposed to top-down lecturing, has resulted in keeping students engaged and actively learning i…

Should the school nag or gameify their showing up, or should it be on the student to be responsible for their own self?

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the respectful and nuanced take. I am somewhat concerned with where this stuff leads, not because I assume it's a one step process between education analytics and oppressive dystopia, but precisely because the use cases you describe seem like great ideas. I agree that minimizing drop-out rates is important, and that we should avail ourselves of whatever tools we can to do it. What you're describing does no…

You're absolutely right, data could be used for these other things that, while potentially beneficial to society and individuals, carry further potential for misuse as well. To address misuse in general: That is always a problem, with any technology, tool, data... anything. It's important that we don't discard useful tools due to potential misuse though. Instead, it's of the utmost importance that, at the outset, iss…

Is it open source / free software?

These things should not be allowed to be proprietary software.. if I attend a public institution that surveils me, I want the surveilance software to be fully open source and I want to be able to know all the data points you would have on me.

Then, I would like to decide for myself whether I want to participate or not.

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