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Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

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101–110 of 293 posts

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#101

Speaking from the Devil's Advocate side, as I work in Higher Education analytics: First: this data is, by the vast majority of institutions, used very respectfully in terms of privacy rights and it is ABSOLUTELY never sold. Third part vendors that provide hosted systems are REQUIRED to affirm that they pass nothing on to any other party whatsoever. (I should note that this is the case in public and traditional privat…

Thanks for the respectful and nuanced take.

I am somewhat concerned with where this stuff leads, not because I assume it's a one step process between education analytics and oppressive dystopia, but precisely because the use cases you describe seem like great ideas.

I agree that minimizing drop-out rates is important, and that we should avail ourselves of whatever tools we can to do it. What you're describing does not bother me, and seems like a reasonable use of the data.

So why not take it a step further? Let's authorize a limited release of student-identifying data to government social work agencies (like the DHS in the United States), so that concerning student performance data could be correlated with whether a student's family was on income/food/housing assistance. Heck, to maximize the signal, we could even correlate it with families who aren't on assistance but whose homes are likely to be foreclosed upon (leading to a likely student move, possibly changing schools--a very disruptive educational experience whose impact can be mitigated with careful preparation). Why not correlate with criminal records, to help promote after-school programs to students who would otherwise be returning to troubled or dangerous homes?

To be clear, I'm bothered because those things all seem like good ideas. I think they'd probably work, if done properly. And would probably help a lot of people. The systems we have currently to try to accomplish those things (overworked social workers, underfunded public-education and after-school programs) aren't succeeding.

...they'd also result in a de facto surveillance state.

If that data were compromised by or sold to an outside (nongovernment) entity, the damage due to the breach would be very severe, from inability to get financing (because lenders know details about your life that may not be reflected on your credit score) to individual persecution (e.g. employer discrimination against family members whose leaked data indicated their financial/housing situation may put their long-term employment at risk).

If the government programs using that data were "compromised" (i.e. staffed, perhaps via an electoral sea-change, with discriminatory people), the damage would be even worse. School funding allocation could suffer because someone at the top decided "Our data shows that so many of the students at $school_x have so much else going against them in their lives--why bother? Starve that school for funding and let it wither; that money would be better allocated to schools attended by our kids/kids of different races/kids with higher income." Additionally, correlations could be dishonestly interpreted by bigoted officials ("the algorithm says that female/male/dyslexic/$race_x kids are a lost cause!").

There are other, logistical issues. If school staff (i.e. counselors) have direct access to all this information, could they discriminate against kids and their families if bigoted? If school staff didn't have direct access, will the right conclusions be drawn by distant analysts (or worse, algorithms) without the personal context of counselors and teachers? A failure to consider all those factors could result in IEP-like things that harm, rather than help (consider: "You talked back to counselor Bob, so he won't authorize you for additional meal points or recommend you for after-school tutoring in an area where you're struggling", or "the DOE algorithm decided you need to take more English classes even though counselor John has been working on getting you individual reading time because he knows there's a bullying risk from other kids in the English program").

Many of these things are already happening, in varying degrees. I worry that making ubiquitous data available could make them worse, if it is not done carefully.

I am also sensitive to the benefits that education analytics (and more pervasive, cross-cutting data availability for government use across the board) can provide. I think the answer is to proceed carefully (i.e. the opt-out buttons you discuss, and careful data anonymization whenever it makes sense to do so) and to insist on comprehensive regulation regarding data exchange between government programs, and between those programs and non-government entities.

EDITS: explained logistical issues. Typos.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#102
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been an instructor for CS courses before so I know what you mean. I never made deadlines anything but absolutely final, which is appropriately not unlike a lot of other things in life --- from what I've heard from others, any leniency just tends to cause more whining. Someone who waits until the last second to do something is not going to do any better if given a tiny bit more time (nevermind the question of how…

How about having the student’s score decay as some function of how late they turn it in? If they turn it in before the deadline, they get 100% of their marked grade, if it’s an hour late 90%, a day late 50%, etc (use whatever function you want)

Usually, delays lead to logistical difficulties. Until every copy of an assignment is submitted, you can't release solutions, assign grades, talk about the problems in lectures or recitations, or really give any feedback whatsoever. I've had excellent courses that ran on your system, but in those cases they had it completely standardized from year to year, and even automated grading systems.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#103
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been an instructor for CS courses before so I know what you mean. I never made deadlines anything but absolutely final, which is appropriately not unlike a lot of other things in life --- from what I've heard from others, any leniency just tends to cause more whining. Someone who waits until the last second to do something is not going to do any better if given a tiny bit more time (nevermind the question of how…

How about having the student’s score decay as some function of how late they turn it in? If they turn it in before the deadline, they get 100% of their marked grade, if it’s an hour late 90%, a day late 50%, etc (use whatever function you want)

My professor for Assembly did exactly that and it felt very fair. However, I think that was only possible because every assignment used an automated grading program, so we could weigh the risk vs reward when deciding if we should spend another day optimizing the code. If an actual person was burdened with grading each assignment, it makes sense to have a harder cutoff that ensures it's possible to grade in a batch for efficiency.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#104
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, my assignments are now largely due at midnight, at a very particular second: submit a nanosecond late at your own penalty. From the instructor's point of view, there's no winning here -- there will always be a cutoff, and any position of it will lead to complaints. Even for an informal system, there's always a last person allowed in, and hence a cutoff. If you have a good reason for an extension, you c…

I don't think you appreciate the basic point that many people do not wish to live in such a mechanistic and rigid society to begin with.

Rules aren't made to make people miserable, they're made to keep things running for everybody involved.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#105

Speaking from the Devil's Advocate side, as I work in Higher Education analytics: First: this data is, by the vast majority of institutions, used very respectfully in terms of privacy rights and it is ABSOLUTELY never sold. Third part vendors that provide hosted systems are REQUIRED to affirm that they pass nothing on to any other party whatsoever. (I should note that this is the case in public and traditional privat…

Just because the institution does not use the data irresponsibly doesn't mean the service provider will not. Not to mention third parties which could potentially gain access to this data directly or indirectly by listening for the check in signal devices send.

Per the article, this is not being used to help the students succeed, instead it is being used to damage their grade for a lack of attendance. I think most reasonable people would agree attendance is not a reliable metric by which to base a students grade. The exception being discussion based or interactive courses like debate or public speaking.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#106

Speaking from the Devil's Advocate side, as I work in Higher Education analytics: First: this data is, by the vast majority of institutions, used very respectfully in terms of privacy rights and it is ABSOLUTELY never sold. Third part vendors that provide hosted systems are REQUIRED to affirm that they pass nothing on to any other party whatsoever. (I should note that this is the case in public and traditional privat…

I work in higher ed and we use a student success analytics platform. Where I see this going wrong is administrators want a system to do everything. We want to identify the at-risk student, nudge them automatically, and have a successful outcome. Schools don't want to invest in people to actually make outreach or connection with students because that is hard. As a result, we generate a ton of data with little to show other than numbers.

I'd be very curious to learn about your LMS usage project. Are you saying you identified at-risk students quickly enough to intervene at a point in the term where it made a difference between passing and failing and that the school successfully intervened in those cases?

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#107
post #91

Speaking from the Devil's Advocate side, as I work in Higher Education analytics: First: this data is, by the vast majority of institutions, used very respectfully in terms of privacy rights and it is ABSOLUTELY never sold. Third part vendors that provide hosted systems are REQUIRED to affirm that they pass nothing on to any other party whatsoever. (I should note that this is the case in public and traditional privat…

> It worked Of course, it works. And it would work even better if you permanently installed an anal probe in each student, plus a few electro-stimulators, and an automatic feeder.

That's a super uncharitable interpretation of the GP's argument.

Privacy is a spectrum. By your "logic", should students' entire identities be concealed from education personnel? Of course not. That's just as ridiculous as what you proposed.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#108
post #73

> logging their absence into a campus database that tracks them over time and can sink their grade. Fortunately, I attended a college (Caltech) that as institute policy did not take attendance and no part of the grade was based on attendance. The result was nobody was disruptive in class, because if students didn't want to attend, they didn't attend. I remember sitting in class as a freshman thinking about this and e…

I attended a private high school that gave us a remarkable degree of freedom at a young age. We were allowed to drive off campus as upper classmen, choose a wide range of electives, and generally were treated as the near-adults we were. Recently I read that my high school is instituting a random drug testing policy. I wrote a letter (that I'm sure they promptly ignored) saying how the thing I most remember about my h…

St. X in Cincinnati?

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#109
post #73

> logging their absence into a campus database that tracks them over time and can sink their grade. Fortunately, I attended a college (Caltech) that as institute policy did not take attendance and no part of the grade was based on attendance. The result was nobody was disruptive in class, because if students didn't want to attend, they didn't attend. I remember sitting in class as a freshman thinking about this and e…

I attended a private high school that gave us a remarkable degree of freedom at a young age. We were allowed to drive off campus as upper classmen, choose a wide range of electives, and generally were treated as the near-adults we were. Recently I read that my high school is instituting a random drug testing policy. I wrote a letter (that I'm sure they promptly ignored) saying how the thing I most remember about my h…

I feel like in the case of schools, there legal risks they have to face that cause this. If something happens to a student while that student is in your care, you get the blame. If the school restricts freedoms they're simply reducing their legal risk.

It's a shame. I agree with you that giving students more and more freedom as they grow is tremendously helpful to their ability to adapt and be responsible by the time they reach adulthood.

Re: Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines

#110
post #49

Not sure if this is still the case or not but at Maryland circa. 2007-2010 it was school policy that no class could have attendance factored into the grade. If you wanted to skip every class and only show up for exams, that was your choice. Privacy implications aside, I feel that this should be the case everywhere since college is effectively a business transaction. What you decide to do with the product after you've…

I teach in political science and I require regular attendance as part of one's grade. Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade. Why? My classes are typically small, under 15 students, and are heavily discussion dependent. Engendering open discussion between students, as opposed to top-down lecturing, has resulted in keeping students engaged and actively learning i…

> Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade.

Why not give a half letter grade boost to those with good attendance rather than docking a half letter grade to someone who misses a few classes? Why not incentivize with a reward rather than a penalty? The carrot rather than the stick?

> However, the students have the opportunity to review the syllabus in advance and the class participation requirement is clearly stated.

That's fine if only you require attendance and most other professors don't and if your class isn't one of the mandatory classes. But if every professor requires attendance or if your class is mandatory, then students really have no choice when it comes to attendance.

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