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EU beckons Indian tech talent

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#241

Post by foepys »

ben_w wrote: post #240
foepys wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30k is gross and 13k is net income, those are very different things. You also only looked at the poverty line for singles, not for couples (or single parent) with children. But you are in good company in this thread as nearly nobody takes children into account. Raising children on the poverty line is not the right way.

The poverty line is defined as 60% of median income, not by needs. In the UK there is also the phrase “living wage” which seems to be about needs rather than relative wealth, but I don’t know enough German to get past the opening paragraph of news (I have the German vocabulary of an 8-year-old, which is somehow all you seem to need for CEFR B1) so if an equivalent exists here, I don’t know it yet. Fair point about gr…

You cannot work with both parents fulltime when you have a toddler. Childcare is often only open 8 hours a day, so working 8 hours is not possible (remember mandatory breaks) and you also have to pay a lot for it. Also, single parents are increasingly common.

Poverty often means that you cannot afford a new washing machine when one breaks. Or not it being able to send your children to school trips.

As a German, I can tell you: 30k€ is not enough to raise a child here, even if both parents are working because at least one cannot work full-time.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#242

Post by brij0102 »

blub wrote: post #223
tzone wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems kind of backwards to be honest. The crackdown on H1-Bs will definitely have long term negative consequences on US tech economy, not positive consequences. A lot of major progress in tech was possible specifically because it was very easy to get h1-b visas especially for immigrants who came to study in US colleges. Imo the issue with European immigration system is that it isn't welcoming for permanent immig…

The US is perfectly capable of supplying the minds that will invent next year's technologies, but probably not at the current salaries :) It just might be that the companies making tens of billions will have to start sharing more of the pie. "the outsourcing companies will get better and do the job cheaper remotely from India, so even more of the tech work will just get outsourced, meaning there will be even less tec…

Anecdotal but I have recently noticed a spurt in ‘retained’ workers for dot-net, Java, and ‘open source’ work in India for anywhere from 2100 to 2800 dollars a month. Maybe this is more for small companies but those small business owners couldn’t dream of hiring someone for twice as much than that even in rural US (and no benefits or payroll and easy increase or reduction in the strength). Outsourcing and automation are way more powerful forces pressuring down salaries, whatever the visa regime (and constantly competing against each other too)

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#243

Post by brij0102 »

thbr99 wrote: post #141
tzone wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems kind of backwards to be honest. The crackdown on H1-Bs will definitely have long term negative consequences on US tech economy, not positive consequences. A lot of major progress in tech was possible specifically because it was very easy to get h1-b visas especially for immigrants who came to study in US colleges. Imo the issue with European immigration system is that it isn't welcoming for permanent immig…

This. The culture part. I have worked in US,CA,EU. I felt US was more accepting than any other country. There is a feeling of being part of US society even though you are a temporary worker. There is very less cultural discrimination in the US. EU,CA are a conservative xenophobic bunch. Many immigrants in Canada who are now citizens still stick their native countries flags on their cars. I have only one question for…

I remember reading a while back that CA encourages retaining native identity (comparisons were made between a quilt and a melting pot ...)

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#244

Post by brij0102 »

negamax wrote: post #56
_pmf_ wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every new software engineer will need restaurants, cars, etc. These jobs can go to locals. That's the most absurd thing I read today.

Of course they spend in the local markets and pay taxes. No?

H1 tightening is suggested as a reason for reduction in house prices in SV ... the uncertainty keeps folks from making the commitment. Prices of course are still high in the valley but multiple offers outside of a few cities are a thing of the past

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#245

Post by ben_w »

foepys wrote: post #241
ben_w wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poverty line is defined as 60% of median income, not by needs. In the UK there is also the phrase “living wage” which seems to be about needs rather than relative wealth, but I don’t know enough German to get past the opening paragraph of news (I have the German vocabulary of an 8-year-old, which is somehow all you seem to need for CEFR B1) so if an equivalent exists here, I don’t know it yet. Fair point about gr…

You cannot work with both parents fulltime when you have a toddler. Childcare is often only open 8 hours a day, so working 8 hours is not possible (remember mandatory breaks) and you also have to pay a lot for it. Also, single parents are increasingly common. Poverty often means that you cannot afford a new washing machine when one breaks. Or not it being able to send your children to school trips. As a German, I can…

I’m agreeing with you. And to an even greater degree if that’s €30k split between two adults and a child.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#246

Post by unishark »

terminaljunkid wrote: post #172
timwaagh wrote: post #11

it's kinda sad european programmers get pushed out of entry level positions by typically more experienced indians willing to work for some premium above indian wage. this ensures programming is not a very well paid job in west europe. europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further putting eu workers at a disadvantage versus indians and russians. which…

I see you have very high opinion about India's engineering education. Being an Indian CSE undergrad student at one of 'top' colleges, I'd say it is crap unless you climb the ladder on your own. 1. Till 10th grade you are not likely to know anything about programming 2. In 11th and 12th there is huge competition for getting into medical / engineering colleges. You study physics - chemistry - mathematics for acing that…

I teach in CS and engineering in a US college. The biggest proportion of our MS students are from India. And I completely agree with what you say about the education system in India. Indian graduates can't program unless they had a job that trained them after they graduated. I have no idea what CSE students are supposed to be able to do, it seems they just memorized a lot of facts about technology with no deep knowledge about how to do anything with it. That would be a two-year degree in the US. In the US you have to be able to solve problems, write programs, etc to graduate a CS or engineering program. In India you clearly don't. That's why we get so many graduates from India and not enough from the US. The bar is just lower...

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#247

Post by thedracle »

thbr99 wrote: post #141
tzone wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems kind of backwards to be honest. The crackdown on H1-Bs will definitely have long term negative consequences on US tech economy, not positive consequences. A lot of major progress in tech was possible specifically because it was very easy to get h1-b visas especially for immigrants who came to study in US colleges. Imo the issue with European immigration system is that it isn't welcoming for permanent immig…

This. The culture part. I have worked in US,CA,EU. I felt US was more accepting than any other country. There is a feeling of being part of US society even though you are a temporary worker. There is very less cultural discrimination in the US. EU,CA are a conservative xenophobic bunch. Many immigrants in Canada who are now citizens still stick their native countries flags on their cars. I have only one question for…

Think of all of the fourth generation people in the U.S. with some link to Italian or Scottish immigrants who still wear kilts, or fly the Italian flag in their homes.

It's pretty silly to Italians and Scots I'm sure, but maintaining some semblance of this distant cultural connection isn't the worst thing in the world.

And the reality is the large immigration waves of both groups in the past left as much of a mark on American culture as it left on them.

Assimilation isn't a one way street, immigrants should expect to change American culture as much as American culture changes them.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#248

Post by thbr99 »

brij0102 wrote: post #243
thbr99 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The culture part. I have worked in US,CA,EU. I felt US was more accepting than any other country. There is a feeling of being part of US society even though you are a temporary worker. There is very less cultural discrimination in the US. EU,CA are a conservative xenophobic bunch. Many immigrants in Canada who are now citizens still stick their native countries flags on their cars. I have only one question for…

I remember reading a while back that CA encourages retaining native identity (comparisons were made between a quilt and a melting pot ...)

In CA, they call it mosaic. But this mosaic has lead to significant anti immigrant sentiments lately. See Québec's Law 21 and to some extend Law 9.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#250

Post by mk89 »

mk89 wrote: post #159
inertiatic wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! I have trouble supporting a child in Greece, with a gross household income of around 50k. I most certainly do not lead a luxurious life. I shudder to think how this would work out in Western Europe where rents are even higher than the ~500 euro most people pay here for a medium sized apartment.

I think everything is relative. I have met and I know many indians that have a lifestyle that we (Europeans) would never follow or think about. That's probably the "luxury" that the parent comment is talking about. As usual, this is where two cultures tend to diverge. For "them" we live a stressful lifestyle, etc., etc., because we need to make money. For "us", they have a laid back lifestyle that we can't understand…

Oh BTW, I also have met very ambitious Indians that work way harder than Europeans. So, take my precious words with a grain of salt.
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