America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly • Hacker News Board

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#21

Post by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #3

Assembling peacefully is OK in the USA, unless the authorities don't like it, then it's not OK. Like Occupy wall street when loads of people were arrested just for assembling.[1] Of course, there's always the classic "arrested for resisting arrest" [2] too. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-arr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeDsO5R8Xr0 Even when you know the law, and follow it very clo…

Many of these cases are dismissed on constitutional grounds. And therein is the problem: “the process is the punishment”

They make it awful to be arrested and detained, and know the case will be dismissed but that doesn’t matter.

https://www.russellsage.org/publications/process-punishment-...

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#22

Post by harimau777 » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

SllX wrote: post #8

virtuous_signal wrote: post #2

Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people assemble and communicate in the 21st centu…

Replace Reddit, Twitter, and Discord or any of the zillion other social networks that exist, the existence of which undermines your concerns from the start, and put in something more traditional like a mall, a private cemetery, or the local coffee shop. You can assemble as much as you like in any of these places during business hours. There might be some quality to them, the availability of open space, good seating,…

An essential part of the "town square" is that it is that it is a central place where people can be heard. The fact that zillions of social networks exist is irrelevant since only a few of them have the public scope and size such that they act as a modern town square. The same is true of physical spaces.

The right to peaceable assembly doesn't the same as it has in the past because in the past the center of society was in public rather than private places.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#23

Post by mistermann » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #13

virtuous_signal wrote: post #2

Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people assemble and communicate in the 21st centu…

The "Town square" has never given you a global audience. Reddit, twitter, and discord are not the equivalent of a Town square, they're a global square giving normal people access to an audience they never would have previously had access to. I get that you have opinions about this, but pretending that the right to have your tweets promoted to an audience of millions and the right to free assembly are in any way the s…

> Reddit, twitter, and discord are not the equivalent of a Town square

> pretending that the right to have your tweets promoted to an audience of millions and the right to free assembly are in any way the same is just muddying the waters

One might say that pretending that:

- because two issues aren't identical, they do not have similarities

- because the 1st amendment does not extend to private corporations, then no free speech (in the generic sense, that precedes the 1st amendment) limitations are occurring

...is also muddying the waters.

I find it interesting how it seems that the ability to detect nuance is largely dependent upon the topic of discussion.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#24

Post by virtuous_signal » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #13

virtuous_signal wrote: post #2

Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people assemble and communicate in the 21st centu…

The "Town square" has never given you a global audience. Reddit, twitter, and discord are not the equivalent of a Town square, they're a global square giving normal people access to an audience they never would have previously had access to. I get that you have opinions about this, but pretending that the right to have your tweets promoted to an audience of millions and the right to free assembly are in any way the s…

So what I think of as "free assembly" way back when, is the private meetings that our founding father had in taverns and homes when they were planning the rebellion. Today I would consider that to be, say, Antifa (or whatever group you like) organizing via whatsapp or facebook groups (and maybe to some extent Twitter). My concern is when the companies behind these platforms shut down groups that they don't like. Sure, the participants could theoretically just meet in person to do their planning, but in a country as big as ours that simply won't happen.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#25

Post by hirundo » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

unlinked_dll wrote: post #12

Kalium wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to remember that even fundamental rights are subject to things like time, place, and manner restrictions. The right to free speech does not generally include doing so at 150Db at 2am in a residential neighborhood. It also sometimes includes restrictions like not blocking public right-of-ways while assembling in public. Freedom of religion does not extend to freedom to engage in the practice of human sa…

the point of protest is to disrupt however. Limiting the ability of a peaceful assembly to be disruptive effectively neuters that assembly.

What would be an example of limiting a peaceful assembly in a way that neuters it? Would you consider blocking a road to be peaceful? I wouldn't. If it were only about limiting a disruptive message, I'd agree, but it's not clear that's what you mean.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#26

Post by throwawaysea » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #5

virtuous_signal wrote: post #2

Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people assemble and communicate in the 21st centu…

I think this is the big risk with infrastructure being privatized. The big tech companies can shut down things they don’t want to see in public. Now imagine roads being fully privatized. Yes, you can assemble somewhere but the owners of the roads can make sure that nobody gets there.

Thinking out loud here, but I don’t think this is as real a risk as it may first appear to be. In most cases I think the owners of the road would rightfully make sure their property is used per their rules. But if we had a society-wise protest (like in Hong Kong), the general laws/rules would be ignored anyways and not much changes between the public and private scenarios.

The problem with today’s protests in America is that it is mostly extreme views from a fringe segment of society that are represented, rather than moderate/balanced views. I’m not sure why so much attention is given to these protests, because it seems like a really poor signal to use for any purpose. Others who may disagree have no accessible avenue to represent counterpoints due to a lack of psychological safety, sometimes a lack of physical safety, and due to a lack of time (especially if you have a family). My gut feeling is that if it became harder to hold those protests (due to public versus private infrastructure), we wouldn’t complain much as a society.

Lastly, the legal right to assembly is regulated in America, by time manner and place regulations. Protesters often ignore those laws and block infrastructure they have no right to block, ignoring the law. I think they should be arrested by force then, but my point is I don’t know that the public versus private angle but will matter to those crowds anyways if other laws don’t matter either.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#27

Post by acollins1331 » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

lawlessquestion wrote: post #10

grecy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand and agree with everything you said. My understanding is that around 2000 people were arrested[1] for peacefully assembling. It wasn't 2am, and they were not sacrificing any humans. In the case of Naomi being arrested that I posted above, she very clearly knew the sidewalks are public, and she was very clearly not breaking any laws, and was arrested anyway. Of course charges were later dropped, because th…

Then it would be up to a competent attorney to sue the arresting officer under 42 usc 1983 civil actions for deprivations of rights. The law provided for reasonable attorney fees to be paid by a defendant who violated your civil rights. The nice thing is that even though your suing the officer who violated your civil rights they are usually covered by an insurance policy so it's technically not an asset poor officer…

Yeah well the fact that the police officer doesn't have to pay for their version of malpractice is stupid as hell.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#28

Post by harimau777 » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #4

grecy wrote: post #3

Assembling peacefully is OK in the USA, unless the authorities don't like it, then it's not OK. Like Occupy wall street when loads of people were arrested just for assembling.[1] Of course, there's always the classic "arrested for resisting arrest" [2] too. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-arr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeDsO5R8Xr0 Even when you know the law, and follow it very clo…

It's important to remember that even fundamental rights are subject to things like time, place, and manner restrictions. The right to free speech does not generally include doing so at 150Db at 2am in a residential neighborhood. It also sometimes includes restrictions like not blocking public right-of-ways while assembling in public. Freedom of religion does not extend to freedom to engage in the practice of human sa…

I agree with you that all rights have some sort of limitation. However, I think a fair question would be wether it is possible to meaningfully cause change while operating within the limitations that are currently placed on freedom of assembly.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#29

Post by wcunning » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

lawlessquestion wrote: post #10

grecy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand and agree with everything you said. My understanding is that around 2000 people were arrested[1] for peacefully assembling. It wasn't 2am, and they were not sacrificing any humans. In the case of Naomi being arrested that I posted above, she very clearly knew the sidewalks are public, and she was very clearly not breaking any laws, and was arrested anyway. Of course charges were later dropped, because th…

Then it would be up to a competent attorney to sue the arresting officer under 42 usc 1983 civil actions for deprivations of rights. The law provided for reasonable attorney fees to be paid by a defendant who violated your civil rights. The nice thing is that even though your suing the officer who violated your civil rights they are usually covered by an insurance policy so it's technically not an asset poor officer…

Except that under the doctrine of qualified immunity that case would be thrown out for an infinite number of tiny reasons. Check out the Institute for Justice for a good run down based on cases they've fought.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#30

Post by throwawaysea » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #3

Assembling peacefully is OK in the USA, unless the authorities don't like it, then it's not OK. Like Occupy wall street when loads of people were arrested just for assembling.[1] Of course, there's always the classic "arrested for resisting arrest" [2] too. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-arr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeDsO5R8Xr0 Even when you know the law, and follow it very clo…

My understanding is that the arrests at occupy Wall Street were because of charges like trespassing, and violation of the time manner and place regulations that govern the right to assembly.

Note that the city won the most notable lawsuit that was filed: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/occupy-brook....

That said, a number of other lawsuits were never ruled on, but rather settled out of court: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/occupy-wall-street-nyc-reaches-...