America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly • Hacker News Board

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#11

Post by grecy » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

lawlessquestion wrote: post #10

grecy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand and agree with everything you said. My understanding is that around 2000 people were arrested[1] for peacefully assembling. It wasn't 2am, and they were not sacrificing any humans. In the case of Naomi being arrested that I posted above, she very clearly knew the sidewalks are public, and she was very clearly not breaking any laws, and was arrested anyway. Of course charges were later dropped, because th…

Then it would be up to a competent attorney to sue the arresting officer under 42 usc 1983 civil actions for deprivations of rights. The law provided for reasonable attorney fees to be paid by a defendant who violated your civil rights. The nice thing is that even though your suing the officer who violated your civil rights they are usually covered by an insurance policy so it's technically not an asset poor officer…

[flagged]

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#12

Post by unlinked_dll » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #4

grecy wrote: post #3

Assembling peacefully is OK in the USA, unless the authorities don't like it, then it's not OK. Like Occupy wall street when loads of people were arrested just for assembling.[1] Of course, there's always the classic "arrested for resisting arrest" [2] too. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-arr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeDsO5R8Xr0 Even when you know the law, and follow it very clo…

It's important to remember that even fundamental rights are subject to things like time, place, and manner restrictions. The right to free speech does not generally include doing so at 150Db at 2am in a residential neighborhood. It also sometimes includes restrictions like not blocking public right-of-ways while assembling in public. Freedom of religion does not extend to freedom to engage in the practice of human sa…

the point of protest is to disrupt however. Limiting the ability of a peaceful assembly to be disruptive effectively neuters that assembly.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#13

Post by notatoad » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

virtuous_signal wrote: post #2

Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people assemble and communicate in the 21st centu…

The "Town square" has never given you a global audience.

Reddit, twitter, and discord are not the equivalent of a Town square, they're a global square giving normal people access to an audience they never would have previously had access to.

I get that you have opinions about this, but pretending that the right to have your tweets promoted to an audience of millions and the right to free assembly are in any way the same is just muddying the waters.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#14

Post by throwawaysea » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:09 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #13

virtuous_signal wrote: post #2

Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people assemble and communicate in the 21st centu…

The "Town square" has never given you a global audience. Reddit, twitter, and discord are not the equivalent of a Town square, they're a global square giving normal people access to an audience they never would have previously had access to. I get that you have opinions about this, but pretending that the right to have your tweets promoted to an audience of millions and the right to free assembly are in any way the s…

I would argue that the physical town Square no longer exists and that the same space for discussion has been subsumed by Reddit and Twitter and such, even if they also include a more global square.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#15

Post by lawlessquestion » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #11

lawlessquestion wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it would be up to a competent attorney to sue the arresting officer under 42 usc 1983 civil actions for deprivations of rights. The law provided for reasonable attorney fees to be paid by a defendant who violated your civil rights. The nice thing is that even though your suing the officer who violated your civil rights they are usually covered by an insurance policy so it's technically not an asset poor officer…

[flagged]

Better that then the successful plaintiff being left holding the bag when their civil rights are horrifically violated. Excessive force cases can and do result in death and disability not including whatever mental trauma. Better the people that the state that employs law enforcement bear the cost associated with their actions, then victims of civil rights violations are unable to collect against a bankrupt defendant.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#16

Post by harimau777 » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #13

virtuous_signal wrote: post #2

Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people assemble and communicate in the 21st centu…

The "Town square" has never given you a global audience. Reddit, twitter, and discord are not the equivalent of a Town square, they're a global square giving normal people access to an audience they never would have previously had access to. I get that you have opinions about this, but pretending that the right to have your tweets promoted to an audience of millions and the right to free assembly are in any way the s…

I'm not sure that I agree with that. We now live in a global world where the issues effecting people have shifting from a local and state level to a national and global level. Therefore, in order for the reach of a modern day town "town square" to be comparable to those in the past, it would also need to be national or globabl.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#17

Post by jancsika » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #4

grecy wrote: post #3

Assembling peacefully is OK in the USA, unless the authorities don't like it, then it's not OK. Like Occupy wall street when loads of people were arrested just for assembling.[1] Of course, there's always the classic "arrested for resisting arrest" [2] too. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-arr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeDsO5R8Xr0 Even when you know the law, and follow it very clo…

It's important to remember that even fundamental rights are subject to things like time, place, and manner restrictions. The right to free speech does not generally include doing so at 150Db at 2am in a residential neighborhood. It also sometimes includes restrictions like not blocking public right-of-ways while assembling in public. Freedom of religion does not extend to freedom to engage in the practice of human sa…

The problem with such generic reminders is that they could easily affect the flow of conversation by being automatically plastered asymmetrically across any forum or social media network at very low cost. For a small amount of money I could essentially pick at random five amendments out of the bill of rights and concern troll them on social media forums while ignoring the others. There's no alarm bell that goes off when someone does that.

To counter this you could make at least one concrete link between your list of potential concerns to the OP's comment about Occupy.

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#18

Post by mistermann » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:19 PM UTC

lawlessquestion wrote: post #15

grecy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Better that then the successful plaintiff being left holding the bag when their civil rights are horrifically violated. Excessive force cases can and do result in death and disability not including whatever mental trauma. Better the people that the state that employs law enforcement bear the cost associated with their actions, then victims of civil rights violations are unable to collect against a bankrupt defendant.

Any comment on the "In the mean time the authorities have effectively shut down the protest, that was perfectly legal" aspect?

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#19

Post by grecy » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

lawlessquestion wrote: post #15

grecy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Better that then the successful plaintiff being left holding the bag when their civil rights are horrifically violated. Excessive force cases can and do result in death and disability not including whatever mental trauma. Better the people that the state that employs law enforcement bear the cost associated with their actions, then victims of civil rights violations are unable to collect against a bankrupt defendant.

[flagged]

Re: America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly

#20

Post by Kalium » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #17

Kalium wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to remember that even fundamental rights are subject to things like time, place, and manner restrictions. The right to free speech does not generally include doing so at 150Db at 2am in a residential neighborhood. It also sometimes includes restrictions like not blocking public right-of-ways while assembling in public. Freedom of religion does not extend to freedom to engage in the practice of human sa…

The problem with such generic reminders is that they could easily affect the flow of conversation by being automatically plastered asymmetrically across any forum or social media network at very low cost. For a small amount of money I could essentially pick at random five amendments out of the bill of rights and concern troll them on social media forums while ignoring the others. There's no alarm bell that goes off w…

You're right! I could definitely have been more specific.

The article cited in the comment I responded to claimed that a person characterized as arrested for political views was arrested for blocking a public right-of-way.

The primary reason I did not list this above is because it functions as an open invitation to endlessly debate if the public right-of-way was blocked or not, how relevant or legal related laws are, and so on. That would have been, in my opinion, not a useful, interesting, or substantive discussion. Almost every party involved would have attended having already decided what was true and ready to argue it forever.

So I skipped it in favor of a more subtle point - restrictions are both allowed and accepted.