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Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

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Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#81
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about operating as a business. Nobody executes better than Amazon right now. As for as the store experience, their selection, price, speed and convenience has led to their wild success. The fakes from 3rd-party sellers are not as big of a problem as HN makes it seem, and they could drop them overnight if they really wanted to in case any liability arises.

> Even with occasional 3rd-party product issues The problem with Amazon is anything can be "3rd-party" and you'll never know until you have a problem with it. Maybe the fraudulent product was the result of a sketchy 3rd-party dealer but also I don't really care -- I bought it from "Amazon" and they sent me tainted inventory. Target and Walmart are catching up with their online operations and at least with them I don'…

> "Target and Walmart are catching up"

Exactly. Amazon is still well in the lead. They have likely analyzed this entire problem with news and features scheduled over the next 2 years to resolve it as soon as their competitors gain any real ground.

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#82
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about operating as a business. Nobody executes better than Amazon right now. As for as the store experience, their selection, price, speed and convenience has led to their wild success. The fakes from 3rd-party sellers are not as big of a problem as HN makes it seem, and they could drop them overnight if they really wanted to in case any liability arises.

> Even with occasional 3rd-party product issues The problem with Amazon is anything can be "3rd-party" and you'll never know until you have a problem with it. Maybe the fraudulent product was the result of a sketchy 3rd-party dealer but also I don't really care -- I bought it from "Amazon" and they sent me tainted inventory. Target and Walmart are catching up with their online operations and at least with them I don'…

[deleted]

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That hasn't been my experience at all, but the further point is that is all background stuff. They can improve the search without changing the UI, so it's not really a response to my point.

It's very much a response to your point. From your original post: > It works well as it is, I certainly never find myself wanting something it doesn't currently do. You are talking about functionality, and I am responding about Amazon's functionality.

this is such a classless reply.

You don't get to tell me what my point was and you certainly don't get to argue with me about what my point is.

The person I responded to said the website hasn't changed. I read that as a redesign of the site itself.

Now, there's nothing wrong if you read it differently. Where you stepped over the line is when you decided to argue with me about what my point is.

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I now get photos of my package when it was delivered.

A local Amazon delivery driver was just found to have been taking the photos then swiping the package. The only reason he was caught was someones Ring doorbell. If anything the package photos are to help Amazon refute claims. I don't know the pay structure for Amazon drivers, but I would not be surprised that we are giving up "trustworthy" drivers for the cheapest option Amazon can provide at scale. I've heard workin…

Right. UPS drivers are union (Teamsters), Fedex are not.

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#85
post #68
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selective memory? Google made this thing called Android. What was Microsoft doing?

Selective memory? MS launched XBOX into one of the world's largest markets (gaming) what was Google doing? Ballmer re-orged MSFT's entire business model, and launched most of the platforms and services from which they derive their revenue today. What has Satya done, materially, do improve MS revenue? In terns of new products, services or op models, etc? We all love MS code, but it's not that important. Linux on Azure…

Ballmer screamed about developers, developers, developers while steadily losing their love and mindshare by breaking their trust that time spent learning windows coding skills was economically valuable (particularly on GUI and front end tech). Satya is regaining that mindshare with open source initiatives, VS Code, proper management of C# and Typescript, and a cloud platform that is incredibly well suited to the needs of enterprise developers even if it's not as popular in the SF hacker community and here on HN. He's pivoted the perception of the company for the better among both investors and developers. Positive perceptions enabled Microsoft to generate significant wealth under Gates and Satya and negative perceptions prevented it under Ballmer. The stock market is by definition the best long term evaluator of a CEO and Ballmer was a dud bracketed by greats.

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very much a response to your point. From your original post: > It works well as it is, I certainly never find myself wanting something it doesn't currently do. You are talking about functionality, and I am responding about Amazon's functionality.

this is such a classless reply. You don't get to tell me what my point was and you certainly don't get to argue with me about what my point is. The person I responded to said the website hasn't changed. I read that as a redesign of the site itself. Now, there's nothing wrong if you read it differently. Where you stepped over the line is when you decided to argue with me about what my point is.

> You don't get to tell me what my point was and you certainly don't get to argue with me about what my point is.

You said one thing, which I replied to, and now you're claiming it's another thing. I'm not really sure what you expect when you do that.

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#87
post #85
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selective memory? MS launched XBOX into one of the world's largest markets (gaming) what was Google doing? Ballmer re-orged MSFT's entire business model, and launched most of the platforms and services from which they derive their revenue today. What has Satya done, materially, do improve MS revenue? In terns of new products, services or op models, etc? We all love MS code, but it's not that important. Linux on Azure…

Ballmer screamed about developers, developers, developers while steadily losing their love and mindshare by breaking their trust that time spent learning windows coding skills was economically valuable (particularly on GUI and front end tech). Satya is regaining that mindshare with open source initiatives, VS Code, proper management of C# and Typescript, and a cloud platform that is incredibly well suited to the need…

You need to provide some evidence of your positions otherwise I suggest it might just be more propagating narrative than anything reflecting what's really happening, which is again my overall point.

First off - opinions on HN don't matter at all.

Even the opinions of tech tastemakers often don't matter.

The vast majority of people in tech know nothing or care nothing of the personal disposition of Ballmer, Satya or Gates.

As you suggest 'perception matters' on some levels, but it's often not fundamental.

I'm doubtful at all that there was any material dissonance or embrace of MS technologies due to Ballmer v. Satya's approach.

Ballmer was by any reasonable measure, massively successful in growing MS developer mind share.

C# / .Net can only be described as a phenomenal success and this was mostly 'Ballmer era'.

Typescript, MS new daring web contribution was started under Ballmer, and it's also been important in terms of developing mind share.

MS VS Code was technically started under Ballmer, though it's possible he may have never supported it's release.

I think the failure of IE during the Ballmer era is a bad stain, but they were up against a good product as well (Chrome).

As for Satya - what products or initiatives has he launched that has improved MS position among developers? I think we can give him some credit for VS Code, what else?

Open Sourcing Chakra? That hasn't done much. Switching over to Edge/Chrome ... hasn't changed much.

Now let's consider the 'stock market attribution' issue.

" The stock market is by definition the best long term evaluator of a CEO "

So in early 2008, the majority of 'stock market' indicies would put most large bank CEO's in the 'good camp' but as it turns out they were completely wrong? Stock markets are often wrong.

What's at issue here is mostly market perceptions and macro fundamentals, not the assessment of CEOs.

In the early 2000's, P/E ratios in tech were not good, in 2009 obviously they crashed. Since then, we've seen increasing levels of liquidity from the Fed 'crazy market' valuations across the board. This has little to do with MS specifically.

Also in the 2000's MS had competitors in G and FB, investors were concerned about long term viability, keeping MSFT multiple specifically down a little. They thought Windows and Office were going to die. But this lack of foresight by analysts was wrong in retrospect wasn't it?

Windows is not dying.

Office is not dying esp. now that they are subscription + web.

The cloud is a big new business for MS, so are many of their other products.

In summary, almost everything Microsoft is today, is due to Gates and Ballmer. Were p/e ratios have been reasonable in perfect hindsight, the stock price would have reflected that and then some.

Satya has benefitted tremendously from the massive money making engine that Gates and Ballmer made, and it remains to be seen exactly what he will do that will make MS a fundamentally greater company.

I believe that Satya was the right choice for the right time, but that ultimately he will not be transformative on the level of either Gates or Ballmer. I don't think Satya is going to take MS into vast new lines of business, re-shaping what they are etc.. Instead - Satya will be guiding growth through a maturing of MS.

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#88
post #12

Yup, and it’s filling out every other company in Seattle with people conditioned to be assholes - this isn’t a leadership principle but it is how you act over time after being ranked according to the leadership principles.

Can you expand on this?

Amazon is a big company so there’ll always be exceptions, so take anything with a grain of salt if it doesn’t match your experience. My opinion is people who do well at Amazon develop a hard edge over time, by design, and that edge frequently makes them into the productive jerk archetype.

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#89
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even with occasional 3rd-party product issues The problem with Amazon is anything can be "3rd-party" and you'll never know until you have a problem with it. Maybe the fraudulent product was the result of a sketchy 3rd-party dealer but also I don't really care -- I bought it from "Amazon" and they sent me tainted inventory. Target and Walmart are catching up with their online operations and at least with them I don'…

> " Target and Walmart are catching up " Exactly. Amazon is still well in the lead. They have likely analyzed this entire problem with news and features scheduled over the next 2 years to resolve it as soon as their competitors gain any real ground.

That's still not anything close to "perfect execution".

Re: Former Amazon employees bake Bezos principles into their startups

#90
post #12

Yup, and it’s filling out every other company in Seattle with people conditioned to be assholes - this isn’t a leadership principle but it is how you act over time after being ranked according to the leadership principles.

Throwaway account because I don’t want my primary account to be associated with my career in any way. I’m a strong advocate of the leadership principles. My organization knows when to cut the noise and get down the business but we have a fairly diverse workplace where opinions are valued but being rude, insulting coworkers, arrogance, etc are not tolerated. Creating an environment where people don’t feel safe means t…

The leadership principles give you cover to be an asshole, and justify it, and turn off questioning of whether what you did was the right thing afterwards. It turns off your empathy. Want to justify screwing over a customer? Just say that someone else is actually the customer.

The common response is that one just doesn’t get it well enough if they have criticisms. That’s what you call a cult. You are the machine that is plowing through businesses and people. Sometimes the field really looks better afterwards, but your paycheck depends on never really looking at the side effects.

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