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How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

latimes.com

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Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#61

Post by saagarjha »

digitalengineer wrote: post #17
tekkk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well when you look down the history you'll find every nation did something horrible (if they have existed long enough). US itself is quite special case in its imperialism which happened much later than the others's (Spain, Netherlands etc). But coming back to present day, it's the actions that we do now that in my opinion matter the most. And US keeps failing on those still, time after time. European countries are in…

I think the people in former Yugoslavia and also the Middle East would love to see the army pick up after itself. Especially the depleted uranium ammunition turns the areas it was used in into a wasteland. I remember a British researcher pulling one used round from a water-tank and brining it home. The airport in the UK went NUTS. One round... The army used 1000 tons of depleted uranium munitions in 3 weeks during th…

Then again, airports are remarkably touchy about many things that aren’t all that bad.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#62

Post by magicsmoke »

cyberferret wrote: post #2

Why is it, when reading this article, all I can picture is that meme of the SS officer saying "Wait a minute... Are WE the baddies?". I am starting to interpret a lot of things I took for granted in my younger years with a different viewpoint, and I am increasingly horrified when I do, as the perceptions I've always had that most Western countries are the benevolent benefactors is tainted by stories such as this, whi…

If you want to be an optimist, the fact that you're worried about atrocities committed by the American empire means that you're not a cold-hearted brute that believes inflicting human suffering is something to be applauded or encouraged. Being concerned about such things means you believe they're not right and should be changed.

If you want to be a pessimist, the ability to be concerned about how America's actions hurt others is actually a luxury you can only afford because you grew up in a time after America has committed all the atrocities that brought it to where it is today. The US has an entire continent of land and resources, a low population density and plenty of room to grow, and no powerful neighbors that could threaten to invade it because it has two oceans as natural boundaries. Back when American settlers couldn't satisfy the lower rungs on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food and security, they had no problems taking land from natives and eliminating hostile tribes as they expanded to the Pacific. But only after those needs were satisfied could Americans think about needs like esteem and self-actualization. Etc being a compassionate country that doesn't commit atrocities and being a global leader.

Unfortunately, this means that as America's standing in the world becomes less secure with the rise of powerful rivals and changes due to global warming, it's quite likely concerns about "being the baddies" will slide to the background.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#63

Post by noobermin »

forgetfulusr wrote: post #45
LatteLazy wrote: post #12

Technically this waste became the problem of the Marshall Islands when they became independent in 1979. That was the time to negotiate with the US about the remaining waste. This is similar to how Chernobyl is a Ukrainian issue. That said, the islanders still have a lot of options. As a free and independent nation, they own the waste with all it's problems BUT also with all it's advantages. Call the Iranians, the Nor…

I agree if by 'beat a bath to your door' you meant - send a battle ship or two, close down all trade routes to and from the islands and declare it a terror state, in need of freedom and nukilear mat extraction. Sounds more plausible.

Threaten the US at your own peril.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#64

Post by gus_massa »

austincheney wrote: post #50

The language and title of the article seem a bit loaded, though there isn't any reason to question the basic facts of the article. While it is true that entire islands were blown away and lagoons contaminated with waste from test detonations there was probably only one blast that probably directly and permanently impacted people in the area: Castle Bravo. Castle Bravo was a test failure that made the Bikini Atoll fam…

Nitpicking:

> The failure was a misunderstanding of basic chemistry under nuclear conditions.

> What scientists didn't know at the time is that under the heat and pressure of a nuclear detonation lithium 7 sheds a neutron and rapidly becomes lithium 6.

I thought that it's very strange that chemistry is involved here and that the heat and pressure cause that, so I looked in Wikipedia:

> When lithium-7 is bombarded with energetic neutrons, rather than simply absorbing a neutron, it captures the neutron and decays almost instantly into an alpha particle, a tritium nucleus, and another neutron.

So the cause is an unexpected nuclear reaction, not an unexpected chemical reaction.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#65

Post by nisse72 »

senorjazz wrote: post #40

The John Pilger documentary "The Coming War with China" has a big section on the Marshall Islands, I was ignorant of the situation there and found it interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDl9ecICIYg

I also recommend his doco "The War on Democracy"

http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-on-democracy

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#66

Post by gdy »

keldaris wrote: post #30
gdy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our other options are to associate with eg China or Russia, and between those the US, even with people like Trump at the wheel, is splendid." Russia has done nothing even remotely comparable to what the US has done in Middle East: after the second Iraq war the country still hasn't recovered, Libya is a mess, Syria is a mess, ISIS was a horror. After all that calling the US splendid compared to Russia is bizarre. May…

The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does - there's only one global superpower, for now. If you look at areas where Russia has had an effectively free hand - like Chechnya, for instance - adjusting for scale, the resulting atrocities are worse than anything the U.S. has done since Vietnam. And in terms of internal repression…

"The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does"

Why do you presume this?

"like Chechnya, for instance"

There are no other instances. And in that particular case, we don't know what the alternatives are. Considering Chechen raids into neighbouring regions and Saudi Arabia's and Turkey's influence in Chechnya, we could've gotten another Islamic State.

As for the US, we don't know what would the US government do if there was an armed rebellion of Hispanic population in the southern states sponsored by Mexico.

"geographical malady of being next to Russia" This sounds Russophobic. When you want to write something like this, try replacing Russians and Russia with Jews and Israel, and see if it still sounds okey.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#67

Post by gdy »

dgoldstein0 wrote: post #38
gdy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our other options are to associate with eg China or Russia, and between those the US, even with people like Trump at the wheel, is splendid." Russia has done nothing even remotely comparable to what the US has done in Middle East: after the second Iraq war the country still hasn't recovered, Libya is a mess, Syria is a mess, ISIS was a horror. After all that calling the US splendid compared to Russia is bizarre. May…

Russia backed Assad in Syria, who attacked his own citizens with chemical weapons. Their main strategy was to target the moderate anti government factions, so the longer the war went on, the less attractive options were available for backing anti government groups. And let's not forget about Russian meddling in Ukraine, and annexing Crimea. Probably not the only stuff they've done, but it's what comes to mind.

And the US allies created ISIS. Pretty clear which side to support, don't you think?

Russian meddling in Ukraine has cost hundred times less lives than American adventures in Iraq. And Crimea has been Russian for over two hundred years before it was reassigned to the Ukrainian SSR in Soviet times.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#68

Post by haecceity »

cyberferret wrote: post #2

Why is it, when reading this article, all I can picture is that meme of the SS officer saying "Wait a minute... Are WE the baddies?". I am starting to interpret a lot of things I took for granted in my younger years with a different viewpoint, and I am increasingly horrified when I do, as the perceptions I've always had that most Western countries are the benevolent benefactors is tainted by stories such as this, whi…

Stop thinking too much. Look at the crazy stuff North Korea is doing!

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#69

Post by gdy »

arethuza wrote: post #44
dgoldstein0 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia backed Assad in Syria, who attacked his own citizens with chemical weapons. Their main strategy was to target the moderate anti government factions, so the longer the war went on, the less attractive options were available for backing anti government groups. And let's not forget about Russian meddling in Ukraine, and annexing Crimea. Probably not the only stuff they've done, but it's what comes to mind.

Also the Russian use of chemical and radiological weapons against individuals within the UK.

And how does it compare with million dead Iraqis?

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#70

Post by gdy »

nradov wrote: post #54
gdy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our other options are to associate with eg China or Russia, and between those the US, even with people like Trump at the wheel, is splendid." Russia has done nothing even remotely comparable to what the US has done in Middle East: after the second Iraq war the country still hasn't recovered, Libya is a mess, Syria is a mess, ISIS was a horror. After all that calling the US splendid compared to Russia is bizarre. May…

Most Finns, Poles, and Ukrainians would probably disagree with you regarding Russian benevolence. Considering how they were invaded and all.

Finns and Poles are history.

And I'd bet Iraqis would choose Russian-style 'invasion' over American one which cost them about million lives in total.

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