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How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

latimes.com

41–50 of 101 posts

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dig it up, and threaten to leave it / break it on a place where currents flow towards continental United States. Declaring war on the United States with a threat of intentional nuclear warfare against its population would be a particularly bad idea. That'll get your sovereignty revoked very quickly via military occupation. The response to what I said of course is: yeah but the US is doing a bad thing. That's correc…

Well that's fine too: the US will then need to deal with it's new colony's nuclear waste legacy! "Oh no, we lost and got everything we needed!" :) Isn't there an old film where a small island declares independence from the US, declares war on the US and then surrenders after 5 minutes to get aid? (Edited because I think it's actually colony's not colonies)

It’s a film called “The Mouse that Roared” with Peter Sellers; a very funny movie (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053084/).

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#43

Technically this waste became the problem of the Marshall Islands when they became independent in 1979. That was the time to negotiate with the US about the remaining waste. This is similar to how Chernobyl is a Ukrainian issue. That said, the islanders still have a lot of options. As a free and independent nation, they own the waste with all it's problems BUT also with all it's advantages. Call the Iranians, the Nor…

That also seems like a great way of some more bomb testing coming your way.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#44
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our other options are to associate with eg China or Russia, and between those the US, even with people like Trump at the wheel, is splendid." Russia has done nothing even remotely comparable to what the US has done in Middle East: after the second Iraq war the country still hasn't recovered, Libya is a mess, Syria is a mess, ISIS was a horror. After all that calling the US splendid compared to Russia is bizarre. May…

Russia backed Assad in Syria, who attacked his own citizens with chemical weapons. Their main strategy was to target the moderate anti government factions, so the longer the war went on, the less attractive options were available for backing anti government groups. And let's not forget about Russian meddling in Ukraine, and annexing Crimea. Probably not the only stuff they've done, but it's what comes to mind.

Also the Russian use of chemical and radiological weapons against individuals within the UK.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#45

Technically this waste became the problem of the Marshall Islands when they became independent in 1979. That was the time to negotiate with the US about the remaining waste. This is similar to how Chernobyl is a Ukrainian issue. That said, the islanders still have a lot of options. As a free and independent nation, they own the waste with all it's problems BUT also with all it's advantages. Call the Iranians, the Nor…

I agree if by 'beat a bath to your door' you meant - send a battle ship or two, close down all trade routes to and from the islands and declare it a terror state, in need of freedom and nukilear mat extraction. Sounds more plausible.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#46
The Marshall Islanders never had any reason to trust the US. These poor people will be crushed by imperial interest and there is very little they can do about it.

While all this is happening, the Marshall Islands continues to lend a UN GA vote to those exact US interests. For example, they are a staunch friend of Israel against near-unanimous international condemnations, and other such ridiculous votes.

This is sad and tragic, and I hope it gives the US citizens among you some pause regarding what is being done in your name.

PS - Don't expect this to change after the elections.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#47
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our other options are to associate with eg China or Russia, and between those the US, even with people like Trump at the wheel, is splendid." Russia has done nothing even remotely comparable to what the US has done in Middle East: after the second Iraq war the country still hasn't recovered, Libya is a mess, Syria is a mess, ISIS was a horror. After all that calling the US splendid compared to Russia is bizarre. May…

I hear Grozny is lovely this time of year.

For those of you who are younger during the second Chechen war in 1999-2000 the Russian army surrounded the city and proceeded to level the whole city with artillery. Primarily to avoid the high losses they took during the first war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999%E2%80%9...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1994%E2%80%9...

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#48
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the 40s-60s, the AEC was also cool with radiation exposure testing on US troops, poor Black people, prisoners, etc. Edit: Plus Japanese, of course. And, arguably, the entire US population.

that makes it so much better... These scientists knew exactly what they were doing and what the fallout would be. They just chose to dump the large part on some foreign place and continue to this day to lie and deceive these peoples. not to say they were the only one. but it's sick, and that's it. nothing else to it. They should by now in 2019 know better and respond better.

Yes, they knowingly engaged in human experimentation. And they should do whatever it takes now to mitigate the damage.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#49

Why is it, when reading this article, all I can picture is that meme of the SS officer saying "Wait a minute... Are WE the baddies?". I am starting to interpret a lot of things I took for granted in my younger years with a different viewpoint, and I am increasingly horrified when I do, as the perceptions I've always had that most Western countries are the benevolent benefactors is tainted by stories such as this, whi…

Recall that as they say, "history is written by the victors." The victors tend to whitewash what they do.

That's inaccurate. It would be more fair to say that history is written by whoever left behind written records.

Example: Europeans who survived the black death were arguably losers of history.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#50
The language and title of the article seem a bit loaded, though there isn't any reason to question the basic facts of the article.

While it is true that entire islands were blown away and lagoons contaminated with waste from test detonations there was probably only one blast that probably directly and permanently impacted people in the area: Castle Bravo.

Castle Bravo was a test failure that made the Bikini Atoll famous, because the explosion was stupendously larger than the planned detonation. That test was supposed to be a secret experiment, but because it was so large it became an instantly known international incident. Wikipedia says the planned detonation was 6 megatons, though video documentary puts the planned detonation at closer to 4.5 megatons. Even still it would have been the largest man-made explosion to that point.

The actual explosion was somewhere between 14.5-15.5 megatons. The failure was a misunderstanding of basic chemistry under nuclear conditions. Scientists knew at the time that explosive force could be multiplied by an order of magnitude by wrapping a nuclear bomb device in fissile material thereby creating a multi-stage detonation. The first stage is the nuclear bomb itself and the second stage is the reaction of the fissile material to the intense heat and pressure thereby becoming fuel for an additional layer of explosion not used by the initial nuclear detonation.

The reason for a multi-stage devise is that a nuclear core has a specific job and the fuel of the second stage would not help achieve that job. The second stage only becomes valid once the first stage is complete. But that second stage fuel isn't stable. It is a rapidly decaying material, which in this case was radio isotope lithium 6. To increase stability the second stage material was wrapped in a blanket of lithium 7. lithium 7 is a heavier radio isotope, but it does not decay in a way that makes it a fissile material. Specifically, Lithium 6 decays into tritium when bombarded with neutrons and tritium is a very unstable radio isotope of hydrogen with 3 neutrons that is the core of the infamous H-bomb.

What scientists didn't know at the time is that under the heat and pressure of a nuclear detonation lithium 7 sheds a neutron and rapidly becomes lithium 6. That effectively means Castle Bravo was the first 3 stage nuclear bomb where all material supplied decayed in a specific order to become fuel in separate stages and each stage magnifying the explosive capability.

Local islanders were impacted by that detonation, but so were many American observers and scientists 30 miles away. The local islanders, and a Japanese fishing vessel, were further away than the Americans in that area, but were in the path of high altitude wind flow. The largest environmental failure from this was the inability to contain the resulting toxins. Trace amounts of fallout would eventually reason Japan, India, and the US. The entire local region was contaminated in a way that would only be understood or measurable over decades due to the increased presence of heavy metals in the ground and water resulting in toxic food supplies and heavy metal poisoning.

* Castle Bravo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo

* Radio Isotopes of Lithium - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_lithium

* Bikini Atoll - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikini_Atoll

* A good video documentary - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM4ZYQmFGlw

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