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Downsides to working at a tech giant

blog.garrytan.com

511–520 of 583 posts

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely this. A lot of startups these days skimp by hiring sub-FAANG SWEs with less than 5 yoe, and it shows in their products. Lack of product maturity, bad engineering (worst horror story I’ve heard recently is Wayfair), resume driven development / over-engineering / cargo culting, huge teams to work on simple features. All so they can hire two middle-skill 22 year olds instead of a skilled 35 year old. If you’r…

Who/what is a “sub-FAANG SWE”? Are you suggesting software engineers who don’t work at one of the FAANG’s are subpar? Apologies if I’m misunderstanding.

I assume they’re saying there’s a certain bar for FAANG SWEs. That doesn’t also imply all (or even the average) SWEs outside of FAANG are below it.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#512
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. This is true but also kind of depressing. With the means of software production cheaply available to everybody is that stable job at a tech giant really the pinnacle of the software engineering career? I understand that everybody's got the bills to pay, kids to raise etc. and maybe I'm a bit naive but…

> This is true but also kind of depressing. With the means of software production cheaply available to everybody is that stable job at a tech giant really the pinnacle of the software engineering career? Yes, because economies of scale greatly benefit big companies. Just because software is free to scale, in the sense that a cp command doesn't cost you anything, doesn't mean that making money from software is free to…

> Yes, because economies of scale greatly benefit big companies.

I don't think software engineering in itself benefits greatly from the economies of scale. Yes, tech giants have developed some nice internal tooling, but the cost of implementing a feature for a google engineer is probably in the same ballpark as for a startup engineer. User acquisition OTOH seems substantially cheaper for the big companies. So, economies of scale in marketing and distribution?

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#513
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the pessimism in this thread bothers you, imagine how much your woefully out of touch survivorship bias and bothers everyone else in this thread? One of the top comments that responds to your post tells you that the math changed. This is true. The fact that neither you nor Garry talk about the concrete specifics of this means that you're either unaware of it, or worse, intentionally sweeping over it. You really th…

I appreciate this, and am trying to take this to heart. But it is also possible to survive. And if you do that, you don't merely survive, you thrive— that's what product market fit looks like. I've been lucky to see it dozen of times first hand, and it's nothing short of magical. When founders and teams pursue something without product market fit, it's a high cost to pay and a terrible outcome for most everyone. This…

On a per employee basis, the overall likelihood adjusted expected value and liquidity of most startup shares generally underperforms the market, almost to zero if biased towards liquid earnings like it should be. If you end up the former employee of one of those startups (which is pretty common), you end up in a place where even if the company is booming 5, 10 years later, no liquidity event has happened nor is in sight for employees. If you ask if you could give someone $9-19M liquid evenly split over the next two decades or several tranches of $1-100M potentially forever illiquid stock and $2M liquid, which one do you think they would pick and should pick? Even if the max payout is lower, the mean payout is orders of magnitudes higher and creates access to bootstrapping. I'm not going to say you made the wrong one for obvious reasons, but do you think it's smart to attach your lifetime net worth to such illiquid assets?

Garry, you entitled your blog post "Working for Microsoft cost me $200 million" but you neglected to mention that you had debt you were paying off. For many other people, that blog post could easily have been called "Why working at startups instead of Microsoft cost me $20M and left me in the debt I started in". That debt neatly encapsulates one of the societal problems with student loan debt. It creates a caste system. The less generational wealth you are born into, the more your stepwise freedom in any direction is piece by piece restricted. You can't make choices that people born just a bit wealthier than you could make because they're cost step functions.

It would indeed have been a poor decision of you to take that Palantir job out of college with your financial situation. That smart decision would have been to keep pursuing the traditional big company engineering promotional path. Any action you take that deviates from that path towards a sustained lower liquid compensation on a year over year basis is one where you're taking a hit to liquidity by paying opportunity cost to make a default-illiquid investment (or multiple of them over time). If you combine all the post-tax income you've lost with the compounding interest it could have made, it's substantial on a career-long basis.

I would advise folks to work at startups for the same reason I'd advise them to work at a fashion magazine or work at a record label intern. It still has some cachet as culturally creative labor, and you can certainly make a living in the industry, but it's not a great place to stay long-term unless you're independently wealthy, are running the show, or you found a firm cleanly in hypergrowth and manage to grow with it. The antics and financial shenanigans take a toll on you. You can't rely on it as a sane vehicle to consistently build wealth, because it's structured like a swap heavily in favor of the company's investors, and you're footing the bill with your labor in exchange for an IOU that the company will IPO.

Tens or hundreds of millions of extra income and RSUs from their big company paycheck could be going straight into their nest egg and compounding over time, making it viable for them to make a major life decision without hardship. It's reckless and irresponsible to recommend others to engage in without a significant buffer of pre-existing wealth, and with the expectation that (like many other kinds of investing) all of participation is at risk of full loss.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right that point broke down pretty quickly. Rent in London is more expensive than most of the United States. I found pay-salary ratio worked best in Toronto provided you don't expect to own a home in the city.

That is why the post started off with "London is an expensive town, so I'm sorry to hear that. But for others --" Some cities are not rational. The best game to play when you have irrational rules is to not play. That is why the post was directed "To others: " London and NYC are not rational cities. To some extent, also Vancouver. Some of these cities are places where foreign cash comes to be parked in, often empty,…

Yup, Vancouver can be more expensive than LA, with way lower average salaries.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#515
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"deserve" doesn't really mean anything. As for why founders get the most equity, it comes down to the most risk. They have the most to lose and are usually are paid last compared to employees who get cash and benefits. It's easy to claim the profits and yet ignore all the risks and losses incurred by founders. I've yet to see someone who thinks otherwise actually go out and start a company. Perhaps it's because the c…

“Deserve“ absolutely means exactly what it means. I’m talking about the equity distribution sub-10 here. What sub-10 employees are getting any more benefits than their founder(s)? Maybe marginally more cash but it’s all still below market so it doesn’t really matter. But most founders I’ve encountered are actually paying themselves more than their early employees because they have to in order to maintain their lifest…

It doesn't mean anything because its a completely subjective moral judgement. There's no global arbiter of what people deserve.

And again, if you think founders should take less equity then you're free to start your own venture and show everyone how well it works. I've yet to see single example of this though. If it's so easy to start a company without risk and get rich then what's stopping anyone else?

Do you realize VC companies are less than 1% of all the small businesses out there? Most entrepreneurs are not well-connected wunderkind raising millions, they're just normal people busting their ass and risking everything they have to start and grow a business. Reality is much harsher than some wishful thinking.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#516
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a really good argument as why graduated corporate taxes really need to be increased in the US. I'd be curious how productive you felt at each position and if you think the FAANG job is more difficult and stressful. I'd like to think that no matter which of these paths we chose - the more stressful and risky life or the more secure and corporate FAANG one - we'd all have a chance to live a decent life.…

I really think the issue is that many startups don't offer alternative compensation and don't play to their strengths. You can be compensated in other ways, but often I've found much of the work at startups can be no more interesting than their Big N counterparts. Your career growth might also be similar. In theory, for startups, you sacrifice pay for other facets. The reality is quite different. The work might be si…

I think the benefit of working at startups is similar to the benefit of working for smaller companies in general. With a small team you'll get to touch more of the stack, and maybe even parts outside of your job domain altogether. In my first job I was the 2nd developer, the first was the CIO. In addition to writing most of the code for this project, I set up the entire production network including load balancers, database replication, firewalls, etc. I even picked out our hardware and physically installed it in the rack we rented at a local ATT data center. Now that's an extreme case obviously, but you will never get anything close to that broad of a base of experience working for a BigCo.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#517

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

> The real substance is — how the fuck did he meet Peter Thiel at 23, and how can somebody recreate that? He kinda answers that fairly early on: "I'd just graduated in 2003, and my friends were starting a company with Peter Thiel. They flew me down to have dinner with Peter." So to get rich, all you need to do is come from enough privilege that you graduate well connected with rich friends... Sounds like your story s…

Where did he say that his friends were rich?

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#518

For all the startup founders and VCs in this conversation, you are cheap motherf*ckers. When I read that engineers and employees prefer FAANG companies because they pay better, I want to remind you that it wasn't always like this. 10-15 years ago startups paid way better than big tech. Big Tech rewarded you by getting to specialize on problems and working at scale. The reason FB and Google pay well is because when th…

Exactly. There get so many startup positions advertised, even here on HN, where the job description summarizes as “build our product from the ground up” and the offere salary is below par and the offered equity is an insultingly low number like 0.2%.

It's because the founders think too highly of themselves, and have the thought that since it's their "idea", they deserve the lion's share of equity.

Do not ever work for a startup where the founder(s) have this sort of mentality.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> statistically unlikely to pay off > probabilities involved with your decision While this is a good general approach to life IMHO as well — if you mean "be rational, not just emotional" and "work on your cognitive biases, seek objectivity" — it might also prove terribly counterproductive in this context. It would take a book or five but briefly: - you just can't use statistics when they say "95% fail", otherwise you…

Small business does not equate to a startup. It's not nearly as huge of a gamble starting a small business as most aren't pursing new ideas in unproven markets, and trying to find product market fit/scale rapidly.

You're right that "startups" are harder statistically I'd suppose, more moonshots.

Still these numbers are general, not tech specific.

The mindset in entrepreneur circles:

- failing is ok. Happens to most. Those who eventually succeed try again, and again.

- you have about 2 years of surviving hell to overcome first

- going alone (by design) lowers your chances of success; hiring gets you in the right growth mindset, strategy (eg most people don't charge enough in the beginning)

Honestly, it's almost masochistic when you've failed twice yet keep trying. Obsessive. You could but just won't fold, get a regular job. This is what it takes.

That's why I said the money is far from the first goal of those who succeed. At best that kind of money is 10 years later when you first try. You'll suffer so much and statistically would probably do better at a regular job. You'll be broke often. Stressed and uncertain. Unable to make promises in your personal life to a certain extent. So why?.. Doesn't make sense from a utility standpoint. You do it because that's what you do, like artists or athletes. This is the general profile of entrepreneurs who make it, and age of success is 45-55 on average.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#520

This vlog is more of a cheap advertisement for the "oh work for a startup it's great" nonsense school. I don't really understand why I would work in an environment where the pay is shit and the issued stocks can be re-classified or diluted or just taken away by lay-offs. Makes no sense.

There is a medium-high probability of what you mentioned. But for many, it's about having a (tiny) shot at changing the world. It can be a thrill. You are also a bigger fish in a small pond - more responsibility, no bureaucracy. And usually the pay is enough to live modestly on.

> But for many, it's about having a (tiny) shot at changing the world. It can be a thrill.

Yes he had a shot at changing the world, at Palantir.

I'm sure that it's a thrill, but it's not necessarily a benefit to the world.

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