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Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

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Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#581
post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree but there are clear hierarchical criteria on how these hazards should be addressed. The reason behind engineering mitigation being favored is because they make the less reliable procedural mitigations moot (I.e., they improve the overall reliability by removing one of the points of failure, in this case the pilot). Forgoing engineering mitigations in favor of procedural fixes goes against good engine…

> I can understand if the AD was intended as a short term fix but I would question the rationale if it were considered a long term solution It was not, Boeing at the time was working on a solution. Regardless, however, the pilots MUST know how to deal with runaway trim. This was true before MCAS, and is true after. It was true on the 757 (I spend 3 years working on the design of the 757 stab trim system). The cutoff…

I don’t think we disagree on any of the above.

But there were other contributing factors in the crashes that must be dealt with

I don’t necessarily disagree with this either, but it does come across as if we’re being distracted by proximate causes rather than focusing on the root cause. To someone on the outside, it sure seems like there are deeper engineering and cultural problems that deserve a greater priority at this point. Not to belabor the point, but simply issuing a procedural AD doesn’t appear to address the root causes and should just be a stop gap measure

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#582
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obvious difference is that SpaceX's landings were secondary objectives and something that nobody had ever done before. Getting in the proper orbit to the ISS was a primary objective for Starliner and something we've been doing for 20 years.

I don't know, space is hard and things go wrong. Just because we've done it hundreds of times doesn't mean we should expect perfection.

At some point we do, and that time is now. How qualified are you to give them a pass?

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#583
post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fly Delta a fair amount and (with status), Delta seems quite good to me. With even the lowest level of status, there are no bag fees for anything approaching typical luggage load. Their app is fine. Web ticketing seems good to me. Domestically, I can almost always buy an economy ticket and get upgraded to first. Even where I have to pay for it, the upgrades are reasonably priced. During irregular ops (weather typic…

I was Delta diamond for about a decade, so same deal...domestically, they really treated you nicely. I flew Frontier the first time this Spring - was helping ferry an open cockpit biplane from Colorado to Illinois - and it was a stupid cheap one way fair. I really can't think of a single perk Frontier did not try and up charge a fee for. Boarding, luggage, carry on, seat assignment... I'm sure there were others. Funn…

I like Frontier but I was stunned to learn that even after paying for all of their upgrades to get seated in the front row, I would still have to pay extra for water.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#584
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can understand if the AD was intended as a short term fix but I would question the rationale if it were considered a long term solution It was not, Boeing at the time was working on a solution. Regardless, however, the pilots MUST know how to deal with runaway trim. This was true before MCAS, and is true after. It was true on the 757 (I spend 3 years working on the design of the 757 stab trim system). The cutoff…

I don’t think we disagree on any of the above. But there were other contributing factors in the crashes that must be dealt with I don’t necessarily disagree with this either, but it does come across as if we’re being distracted by proximate causes rather than focusing on the root cause. To someone on the outside, it sure seems like there are deeper engineering and cultural problems that deserve a greater priority at…

It wasn't a "procedural" AD, it was an "EMERGENCY" AD. It says so right at the top:

https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MA...

Put another way, would you want to board an airplane where the pilot did not take EMERGENCY instructions seriously? I wouldn't.

> distracted

Pretty much 100% of the popular media (and its repeated appearances on HN) has been on the MCAS design shortcomings. Which distract from dealing with the other causes of the accidents.

As I mentioned previously, the AD was issued as a stopgap measure while Boeing worked on an MCAS fix.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Starliner mission was a test. You wouldn't have 100% confidence that a test would be executed flawlessly. The purpose of the test is to find flaws in the system, and that's exactly what they did.

Yes but the test was not supposed to be basic orbital insertion, it was supposed to be ISS rendezvous.

Imagine if it had taken out the ISS. Oopsie.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#586
post #114

Boeing was still promising end of year FAA certification for 737 Max as recently as early December. Around that time, they had a spokesperson on CNBC who was asked directly how the outstanding steps (which indicated February at the earliest) aligned with their end of year statements and the position was essentially, 'we've been saying end of year and end of year could still happen.' When your brand is suffering a cri…

The Starliner mission was a test. You wouldn't have 100% confidence that a test would be executed flawlessly. The purpose of the test is to find flaws in the system, and that's exactly what they did.

This is akin to saying the US Vanguard TV3 launch was a test. Yeah, it was, but it was also a response to their competitor having launched first and better, and a catastrophic failure blows up confidence in your programme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_TV-3

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when the company decided to do all 401k matching in Boeing stock in 2009. I thought that was the norm? I've only worked at one public company and they did matching in company stock as well - I'd periodically sell it and reinvest so only about 20% of my holdings was in company stock. I wish I'd kept more in their stock since they've done quite well.

This is not the norm AFAIK. Matching at my previous companies has been proportionally into the mutual funds I had selected as part of my portfolio.

Maybe this is an aviation industry thing.

At a not-Boeing company, I believe all of our 401k match was company stock, although we could move it to other funds after it came in as company stock.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. I don't think you all realize how stupendously expensive certifying a new type is. Boeing and the airlines wouldn't be prepared to absorb the extra costs just to have a slightly more efficient 737 at the other end of it. - MCAS needs to die. I doubt I could have written a subsystem that tries harder to kill you if I tried. Everything about that hack is grossly negligent and possibly criminal. - Both AoA se…

It needs three AoA sensors, like Airbus planes have. Two isn't enough for such a safety-critical system. When one malfunctions, you still need to know what the correct value is.

Three AoA sensors is still not enough to generate a confident consensus to allow an autopilot system capable of crashing the plane to function

On Lufthansa 1829, two of the three AOA sensors on an A321 erroneously agreed, causing a system similar to MCAS to kick in[1]

The sensors can fail due to being frozen, or also be damaged by birds traveling in flocks

[1] Third bullet point under the A321 heading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incident...

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...single-aisle monoculture makes flying miserable. What is it that people expect when they say flying is miserable? I expect safety, which is why I'll never get on a 737 MAX. Other than that, I just put sandwiches and snacks in my pocket, fill my water bottle, and in X hours I'm thousands of miles away. Air travel is actually pretty amazing.

I expect to be able to sit in my seat without having my knees crushed? How about that for a start?

Flying you essentially pay by the inch at a price that's remarkable low historically speaking. The service has no more romance than what a Greyhound bus ride once offered (and don't ask what that's like now).

This is either a triumph of choice, markets, and abundance or grim, barbaric end to flight as uplifting experience.

It's also safer than it's ever been.

We can each decide, I suppose.

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