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The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

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Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#161

Post by SerLava »

xwdv wrote: post #104
SerLava wrote: post #43

Isn't this the plot of BioShock? If this sounds like a dorky joke post, it's not. Isn't this literally motivated by the same neo-fuedal oligarchical narcissism that made the bad guy in BioShock build essentially the same thing as this? Tell me one of these "seasteads" won't get hit by some speedboat pirates and decide OK, we're gonna arm up and hey why not build down? And you know what? No one's gonna say we can't do…

What’s bleak about consensual human experiments? The volunteers who sign up are doing a great service for all mankind. There is so much to learn.

OK now Sea Citizen, you haven't been hitting your production targets... This is the third month you've failed to qualify for the monthly "bonus" scrip. After rent and commissary, I'm afraid that puts you in the red. And I don't have to tell you what that means.

There aren't any open positions higher up, and you aren't exactly a top performer. The only way I see you digging out of this is signing up for the Human Initiative Project. A couple injections a week, plus your regular salary, and you'll have more than enough scrip.

Don't believe the rumors, you'll be just fine.

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#162

Post by Ididntdothis »

dickeytk wrote: post #154
arrosenberg wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Do I want to create the first venture-backed city-state? Hell yeah” Ahem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies And we all know how well that turned out for the locals.

We’ve seen a bit of this domestically too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

Well, I am glad I work in medical devices. Vouchers for stents or pacemakers probably won’t be very attractive.

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#163

Post by m463 »

rtempaccount1 wrote: post #8

Ultimately any country/state needs a variety of services, from utilities like water/sewage/electricity to emergency services like ambulance/fire/police to a military to defend what you've got from other countries. you also need things like roads, telecomms infrastructure and other things that have been built over decades/centuries in established countries. You also need things like a foreign service to liaise with ot…

> A "low tax" environment inevitably has to skimp on those services somehow.

I think this is preception, not reality.

The US was formed with checks and balances amongst the branches of government yet there seems to be no checks and balances against government spending or taxation.

The fact that the Laffer curve[1] is a thing leads me to believe that government will continue to tax until the maximum taxation is achieved, or beyond.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#164

Post by [deleted] »

SerLava wrote: post #43

Isn't this the plot of BioShock? If this sounds like a dorky joke post, it's not. Isn't this literally motivated by the same neo-fuedal oligarchical narcissism that made the bad guy in BioShock build essentially the same thing as this? Tell me one of these "seasteads" won't get hit by some speedboat pirates and decide OK, we're gonna arm up and hey why not build down? And you know what? No one's gonna say we can't do…

[deleted]

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#165

Post by m463 »

keiferski wrote: post #17

Obviously it's sci-fi scenario, but the real solution (assuming that you see it as a problem) to overbearing and entrenched government power will probably be self-sustaining space colonies. Experimental governments on Earth are limited by the fact that [large state power] can invade you in a matter of hours for arbitrary reasons, no matter where you on are the planet. Fly off into the deep cosmos, though, and your ch…

> Fly off into the deep cosmos, though, and your chances of survival dramatically increase.

It might help to bring an earth ecosystem with you.

Actually, I wonder if earth will be in danger when space colonies take place, because they will have the "high ground" and be able to drop rocks for basically no cost.

On the other hand, maybe with replicators, the psychology of post-scarcity might change things.

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#166

Post by Ididntdothis »

xwdv wrote: post #104
SerLava wrote: post #43

Isn't this the plot of BioShock? If this sounds like a dorky joke post, it's not. Isn't this literally motivated by the same neo-fuedal oligarchical narcissism that made the bad guy in BioShock build essentially the same thing as this? Tell me one of these "seasteads" won't get hit by some speedboat pirates and decide OK, we're gonna arm up and hey why not build down? And you know what? No one's gonna say we can't do…

What’s bleak about consensual human experiments? The volunteers who sign up are doing a great service for all mankind. There is so much to learn.

You can’t have anything really consensual if there is a big power differential and the party with more power is willing to use it and allowed to do so. We have seen multiple times in history that this leads to slavery, servitude or other forms of exploitation.

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#167

Post by darawk »

SerLava wrote: post #152
darawk wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would anyone in their right mind, other than a warlord-wannabe billionaire, assent to this idea? Maybe they won't. You are, in a certain sense, assenting to it right now. Websites have exactly this governance model. Hacker News is run by a king. We all choose to spend time here anyway, because he does a good job responding to our needs. A lot of things work this way, in fact. When you go to a restaurant, you do…

>We all choose to spend time here anyway, because he does a good job responding to our needs. >A lot of things work this way, in fact. When you go to a restaurant, you don't get to vote on the menu. You order what's there. The problem isn't that someone else might choose something for you. That's not what anyone is worried about here. An incredibly silly comparison. The environment they are trying to set up makes the…

> The problem isn't that someone else might choose something for you. That's not what anyone is worried about here. An incredibly silly comparison.

> The environment they are trying to set up makes them unaccountable and undemocratic, capable of entrapping and exploiting people to no end. The potential actual consequences are infinitely greater than condiment selection.

Explain to me what you think the difference between "undemocratic" and "people choosing things for you" is.

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#168

Post by darawk »

arrosenberg wrote: post #151
darawk wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would anyone in their right mind, other than a warlord-wannabe billionaire, assent to this idea? Maybe they won't. You are, in a certain sense, assenting to it right now. Websites have exactly this governance model. Hacker News is run by a king. We all choose to spend time here anyway, because he does a good job responding to our needs. A lot of things work this way, in fact. When you go to a restaurant, you do…

It seems to me that the primary difference is your ability to reverse course once you have relocated if you aren't the guy at the absolute top. Rather, it's not the switching cost going in, so much as the switching cost going out - it's the same problem you'd face joining Scientology. The original question I responded to is "why the fear of opt-in competition to the current model of governance?" The answer is that me…

> It seems to me that the primary difference is your ability to reverse course once you have relocated if you aren't the guy at the absolute top. Rather, it's not the switching cost going in, so much as the switching cost going out - it's the same problem you'd face joining Scientology.

Yes, indeed. That is the essential question for Patchwork-based ideologies. However, that is something they actively try to think about

> The answer is that meaning of "efficient" can vary widely depending on who wields power. At our current evolutionary state communalism works up to about 150 people. Beyond that, you need a higher level of government, and historically that means some form of authoritarian government. Since this idea is being proposed by tech-funded billionaires, I can apply a filter to history to glean some insight as to what happens when a group of wealthy sociopaths are given absolute rule over a state. Since I value popularly elected, republican forms of government and free markets empowered by organized labor, I would naturally oppose an experiment that will very obviously lead to more autocracy, servitude, and exploitation by billionaires seeking to bestow feudal fiefs on themselves.

Ok, but how exactly does an experiment lead to that? If that is the outcome that it generates, and people do not prefer that outcome, then they simply will not move there. So, if you are correct in your diagnosis, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. The only thing you do have to worry about is discovering that your preconceptions were not accurate.

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#169

Post by darawk »

klyrs wrote: post #153
darawk wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So...your concern is that seasteading will promote human trafficking?

I'm saying it's a risk, and directly responding to the notion that "for now" emigration is at-will.

Human trafficking is a risk in any scenario, though. It's unclear why that's a salient issue here.

Re: The Hottest New Thing in Seasteading Is Land

#170

Post by Matticus_Rex »

fourthark wrote: post #142
Matticus_Rex wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks to my past life working in the libertarian movement, I personally know a lot of the people written about in these conspiracy theories, and have been previously accused of being a paid Koch shill with nefarious motives for expressing my genuine (research-based!) opinions on what I think is best for society. I've met some self-interested people on the establishment Republican lobbying side, but almost none of th…

The ideology just happens to align so well with the interests...

Not really -- most business lobbyists are looking for various forms of corporate welfare. They want special treatment for their business/industry, or barriers to entry that prevent competitors from getting a foothold. Yeah, low regulatory barriers can help a whole industry, but why do you think many big companies lobby in favor of regulations? Big businesses can handle regulations way better than small companies (see Google with the GDPR, for example). Deregulation is an even playing field, so it's a tough sell to say that that's just self-interest.
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