Downsides to working at a tech giant • Hacker News Board

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#341

Post by TuringNYC » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

garry wrote: post #309

hindsightbias wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stories like this are really a dime a dozen. Marc Andreesen and the founders of Tivoli both worked in the same IBM dept. I met Michael Dell when he was building systems in his dorm. So did a thousand other people. Anyone who got in early at Dell got ground into the pulp years before there was a huge payoff. Even those who survived had to wait 10 years. The trick is finding new tech where people are taking risks. Anyb…

This is a great reminder. I was impressed by the recent documentary "General Magic" by how much smart people seem to congregate around new ideas. The old Mac team was the same one trying to create the smartphone 10 years before it was possible, and it was that core of folks who ended up doing it at Apple and Android later anyway.

I saw the documentary and enjoyed it. But finding that company in 2019 seems harder. That said, I perhaps I'm not seeing it -- how do you find that company of today?

There are thousands of start-ups in their A round right now. A bit less in their B round. Which is going to be Apple of 2040? Which will be the Google of 2030? Which will be the Stripe of 2025?

It is like one of those quotes "if you purchased gold in 2002 and sold in 2009, you'd have a 400% return" -- works well when you know in hindsight that 2002 was a long-time low and 2009 a long-time high.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#342

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:19 PM UTC

yowlingcat wrote: post #192

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

If the pessimism in this thread bothers you, imagine how much your woefully out of touch survivorship bias and bothers everyone else in this thread? One of the top comments that responds to your post tells you that the math changed. This is true. The fact that neither you nor Garry talk about the concrete specifics of this means that you're either unaware of it, or worse, intentionally sweeping over it. You really th…

[deleted]

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#343

Post by TuringNYC » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

cosmodisk wrote: post #311

georgeburdell wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG pay has gone through the roof while startup pay has not. I am not a software engineer, but I still work in a field rife with startups. I don’t even work at a FAANG, but I do work for the industry leader in my field and I’m making a safe $250k annually after 5 years. I have gotten a few startup offers just to test the waters and I’m generally being offered $175k + $50k-$100k in stock options. Sounds OK if you ex…

It's a bit sad how the rest of the world don't put such reward for dev jobs.Even here, in London,I'd need to be a quant to pull such a salary.

London is an expensive town, so I'm sorry to hear that.

But for others -- dont be too jealous, because a lot of that high salary is just a rent premium and ends up with landowners. Great if you are a landowner, but otherwise, you're mostly breaking even after taxes and rent unless the markets riso to make your stock grant in the money. (and well, if all the math is on stock anyway, you can work anywhere and just buy some options on FAANG and be done with it, which is what I do.)

There are cases where you can do well (e.g., live with 2+ roommates in a tiny apt like some friends do.) -- but then, it isn't a sustainable thing.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#344

Post by codingslave » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

KoftaBob wrote: post #332

jarjoura wrote: post #221

For all the startup founders and VCs in this conversation, you are cheap motherf*ckers. When I read that engineers and employees prefer FAANG companies because they pay better, I want to remind you that it wasn't always like this. 10-15 years ago startups paid way better than big tech. Big Tech rewarded you by getting to specialize on problems and working at scale. The reason FB and Google pay well is because when th…

Startups paying better than tech giants seems counter intuitive to me. The giants can pay high salaries because they're hugely profitable and don't need to worry about being hyper efficient to make the most of VC money. Startups on the other hand, are still weak on the profitability part, but have massive room for growth when it comes to valuation. Therefore, the equity they can offer has way more potential value tha…

Founders are not even giving enough equity for employees to match the income they lose not working for big tech. Its common to still make less on equity + salary after a successful exit compared to the yearly total compensation at big tech.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#345

Post by Gibbon1 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:24 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #337

nojvek wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BigTech is insanely big right now. Basically advertising and cloud are humongous cash cows. It’s a good time to work for BigTech and build some safety net. But then again it’s only Google and FB that pay above the line. Microsoft and Amazon salaries, last I checked were pretty subpar.

Apple is not known for paying great, either. So one wonders if it really is just Google and Facebook pumping the market up.

My theory (I could be wrong) is that both Google and Facebook and startups trying to emulate them are trying to exclusively hire from the same dozen elite universities. That would explain the salaries.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#346

Post by walshemj » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:24 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #328

fatnoah wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reason why is the math changed. Very true. Making it even more unbalanced is that a startup exit may not be profitable to non-founders. I spent the first 17 years of my career at 3 different startups. Two were acquired and one is still chugging as a lifestyle business for the founder. The net value of my options (> 1% even after dilution in two of them) amounted to a $2000 capital loss due to there being no mone…

I think this is a really good argument as why graduated corporate taxes really need to be increased in the US. I'd be curious how productive you felt at each position and if you think the FAANG job is more difficult and stressful. I'd like to think that no matter which of these paths we chose - the more stressful and risky life or the more secure and corporate FAANG one - we'd all have a chance to live a decent life.…

I think you need to reform employee stock options - in the UK there are far less possibilities to screw employees over stock options.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#347

Post by akhilcacharya » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:24 PM UTC

garry wrote: post #100

senordevnyc wrote: post #21

This is such a weird post. Big fan of Garry, but I don't agree with most of this. 1. Just because it turned out that you would have made $200mm doesn't make it a mistake. If anything, that outsized return proves just how rare this kind of outcome is. If you look at the YC startups graduating every year, maybe 1 will ever generate $20mm for an early employee, let alone $200mm. Joining a new startup for that kind of ou…

Thanks for the note! I appreciate the feedback. These things are crazy rare. I didn't do a good job of explaining then how weird this experience was. In the moment it felt like any other startup. Peter was great and well known but not outrageously famous the way he is today. I also didn't do a good job of doing an intro on this idea that tech startups are taking over all of the economy. There are some things that I j…

> I was making a joke about Google eating all of the world's revenue, but it didn't land. Sorry about that.

Honestly, I found it slightly offensive.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#348

Post by diafygi » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

garry wrote: post #257

thatsenough wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not pessimism. People should just get to hear both sides, and know that VCs typically offer this advise because, first and foremost, it benefits the VCs. The VC typically has enough money to be set for life, several times over. They bet on many companies simultaneously to diversify their own risk. Most companies will fail, and the employees will go down with the ship, but the VC only needs a handful of bets to pa…

I started in 2006, here, just like you, reading Hacker News. I spent most of my day writing code. I learned on this site how to build things for other people, ship and release them, and yes, eventually build a company. I learned I wasn't meant to have a boss. The only reason I became a VC is that I want to be here to help people who really should be start companies actually figure out that they can! People helped me…

> The world is full of capital, and it's not going to the right people who can solve problems.

Hmmmm, isn't being a VC kind of exacerbating this problem? The business model of being a VC is entirely based around moonshots, which means that you are pigeonholed into only making bets on certain types of founders that either (a) already have extremely high risk tolerance or (b) can be pushed by VCs to take risks beyond their personal risk tolerance.

Which makes your "right people" statement come off slightly disingenuous, since the VC strategy seems to disproportionately attract more Mark Zuckerbergs than Matt Mullenwegs (for category (a)) and often exploits founder naivety for the benefit of the VC (for category (b)). I'd argue that many if not most of the "right people" who can solve problems are in general not a good fit for seeking VC investment.

Do you have suggestions for other investments strategies that may be more compatible for potential founders that don't fall within these two categories? Have you thought about branching into those investment circles?

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#349

Post by akhilcacharya » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:26 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #164

senordevnyc wrote: post #21

This is such a weird post. Big fan of Garry, but I don't agree with most of this. 1. Just because it turned out that you would have made $200mm doesn't make it a mistake. If anything, that outsized return proves just how rare this kind of outcome is. If you look at the YC startups graduating every year, maybe 1 will ever generate $20mm for an early employee, let alone $200mm. Joining a new startup for that kind of ou…

Yeah, the moral of the story, as far as I can tell, is: 1) make sure to know the kind of person who can write you a $72,000 check as if he was leaving a tip at Starbucks, 2) impress him enough that he’s willing to offer you $200 million when you’re 23. I see now where I went wrong in my youth.

> 2) impress him enough that he’s willing to offer you $200 million when you’re 23

I think the answer to that is "Go to Stanford". For literally 99.999% of people that is never possible.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#350

Post by TuringNYC » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:26 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #284

jarjoura wrote: post #221

For all the startup founders and VCs in this conversation, you are cheap motherf*ckers. When I read that engineers and employees prefer FAANG companies because they pay better, I want to remind you that it wasn't always like this. 10-15 years ago startups paid way better than big tech. Big Tech rewarded you by getting to specialize on problems and working at scale. The reason FB and Google pay well is because when th…

Google and FB were paying less when they were founded than most startups I see today, adjusted for inflation. The difference is that now Google and FB pay way more . More than startups could ever dream of competing with. Everyone I know at FB or Google is making $225k+, with the average/median being around $300k/yr. Absolutely no way new startups can play ball with those salaries, and FB/GOOG certainly weren’t paying…

>> Google and FB were paying less when they were founded than most startups I see today, adjusted for inflation.

You'd have to adjust quite a bit for inflation. The average rent has skyrocketed 300% since the time Google was a pre-IPO company. I would not mind a "low" Google 2004 salary if I could somehow also lock down a Mountain View 2004 mortgage. Also, tuition and student loans have risen. So while im at it, i'd love to lock down a 2004 student loan burden.