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A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

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Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#71

Post by dctoedt »

luckydata wrote: post #66
forgotmylogin2 wrote: post #22

The author either has a fundamental misunderstanding of the criticisms against "safe spaces" or he's deliberately mischaracterizing them to earn the favor of his classmates. > What she meant by “safe space” was that she was happy to be in an environment where difficult subjects can be discussed openly, without the risk of disrespect or harsh judgement. If that's actually how safe spaces were implemented in practice,…

Put this way, it really makes me think you don't like safe spaces because they hinder your ability to hurt transgender people. It always seem that the only people complaining about systems designed to respect others is the people that are doing the dis-respecting, haven't seen much proof of the contrary so far.

Are you assuming general agreement to an expansive definition of what it means to "hurt" or "disrespect" someone?

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#72

Post by ItsMattyG »

luckydata wrote: post #66
forgotmylogin2 wrote: post #22

The author either has a fundamental misunderstanding of the criticisms against "safe spaces" or he's deliberately mischaracterizing them to earn the favor of his classmates. > What she meant by “safe space” was that she was happy to be in an environment where difficult subjects can be discussed openly, without the risk of disrespect or harsh judgement. If that's actually how safe spaces were implemented in practice,…

Put this way, it really makes me think you don't like safe spaces because they hinder your ability to hurt transgender people. It always seem that the only people complaining about systems designed to respect others is the people that are doing the dis-respecting, haven't seen much proof of the contrary so far.

The problem is of course when legitimate facts or opinions hurt others, it has the side effect of silencing others and creating a false sense of consensus (sometimes, literally, a false sense of scientific consensus) and debating the actual merit of different policies.

The flipside of your statement is "I'm starting to think that only the people whose opinions aren't silenced are the ones who like safe spaces"

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#73

Post by crisdux »

tptacek wrote: post #64
crisdux wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are off topic but I'd like to answer your question. It's increasingly become an issue in the public space because local governments are increasingly getting involved with this issue. Dissidents may believe that governmental power is being misused to further a harmful ideology and to push unproven and ill-advised treatments on children.

This is about as charitable an interpretation as the one suggesting marriage equality would be a harbinger of bestiality. You can always connect some set of dots from a policy you don't like to some lurid, horrible outcome; there's a well-known rhetorical fallacy that captures this directly.

Your comment is a good example of the critique at the top of this thread. You start with the worst possible interpretation of my comment, use a metaphor about bestiality and immediately dismiss my comment as a fallacy.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#74

Post by maxcan »

luckydata wrote: post #66
forgotmylogin2 wrote: post #22

The author either has a fundamental misunderstanding of the criticisms against "safe spaces" or he's deliberately mischaracterizing them to earn the favor of his classmates. > What she meant by “safe space” was that she was happy to be in an environment where difficult subjects can be discussed openly, without the risk of disrespect or harsh judgement. If that's actually how safe spaces were implemented in practice,…

Put this way, it really makes me think you don't like safe spaces because they hinder your ability to hurt transgender people. It always seem that the only people complaining about systems designed to respect others is the people that are doing the dis-respecting, haven't seen much proof of the contrary so far.

If hearing the opinion of someone you vehemently disagree with, in this case the appropriateness of sexual affirmation surgery (or whatever its called these days), hurts you are not mature enough for institutions of higher learning, or quite frankly, to constructively participate in democratic society.

As a Jew, hearing the words of neo-nazis absolutely disgusts me to my core but it does not "hurt" me. If words hurt you, that is your fault, not the words' fault.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#75

Post by tptacek »

crisdux wrote: post #73
tptacek wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about as charitable an interpretation as the one suggesting marriage equality would be a harbinger of bestiality. You can always connect some set of dots from a policy you don't like to some lurid, horrible outcome; there's a well-known rhetorical fallacy that captures this directly.

Your comment is a good example of the critique at the top of this thread. You start with the worst possible interpretation of my comment, use a metaphor about bestiality and immediately dismiss my comment as a fallacy.

I understand why you'd read it that way and I'm sorry if I worded it carelessly, but I didn't make the "bestiality" thing up and wasn't implying that you were making that comparison. Those really were dots that people, including senior policymakers, connected. Something you might want to read up on is "the parade of horribles", which is what you're essentially invoking when you suggest that any government protection for trans people is a slippery slope to "unproven and ill-advised treatment for children".

I think you'll find that the mainstream public policy about trans people is whether they should have access to facilities or recourse to anti-discrimination laws when they're fired from jobs.

You'll have to address those policy debates on the merits, without appeals to some hypothetical future horror.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#76

Post by ganzuul »

abjKT26nO8 wrote: post #46
forgotmylogin2 wrote: post #22

The author either has a fundamental misunderstanding of the criticisms against "safe spaces" or he's deliberately mischaracterizing them to earn the favor of his classmates. > What she meant by “safe space” was that she was happy to be in an environment where difficult subjects can be discussed openly, without the risk of disrespect or harsh judgement. If that's actually how safe spaces were implemented in practice,…

> A common example is that people opposed to sex-reassignment surgery are not allowed into discussions about trangenderism [sic!] because their opinions are considered "disrespectful" or even "violent" to transgender people. What does "being opposed to sex-reassignment surgery" even mean? I see two options: 1. Being opposed to others having the possibility of undergoing such a surgery. 2. Being opposed to undergoing…

By the definition of 'safe space' given by the article?

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#77

Post by MrDrone »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #57
namirez wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * The primary criticism against safe spaces is that they are an excuse to censor dissenting opinions. A common example is that people opposed to sex-reassignment surgery are not allowed into discussions about transgenderism* What a strange example! What is the "dissenting opinion" about sex-reassignment surgery and transgenderism? Is it not for individuals to decided? Why would this even be an issue in the public s…

For myself I am not against the procedure. I am against allowing children to do so without the consent of their parent. We don't let children drink, drive, or hold employment until certain ages. Yet is is completely fine for them to have life altering changes done to their bodies at very young ages.

Can you cite examples of this occurring with any sort of regularity in America? The most I've ever heard of are doctors prescribing puberty blockers - which actually preserves their ability to choose later.

Even this is seen as an extreme step and typically only done with multiple doctors signing off.

There are appear to be rare outliers and technicalities, but these are single digit exceptions rather than representative of some new norm.

https://www.quora.com/What-age-can-children-have-sexual-reas...

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/oregon-teen-sex-change-law...

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#78

Post by tptacek »

ItsMattyG wrote: post #72
luckydata wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put this way, it really makes me think you don't like safe spaces because they hinder your ability to hurt transgender people. It always seem that the only people complaining about systems designed to respect others is the people that are doing the dis-respecting, haven't seen much proof of the contrary so far.

The problem is of course when legitimate facts or opinions hurt others, it has the side effect of silencing others and creating a false sense of consensus (sometimes, literally, a false sense of scientific consensus) and debating the actual merit of different policies. The flipside of your statement is "I'm starting to think that only the people whose opinions aren't silenced are the ones who like safe spaces"

The reason this isn't a devastating rhetorical blow is that everyone from scientists to basement-dwelling bigots believes they have "legitimate facts" on their side. People believe all sorts of random things, and some of those things are genuinely harmful. I'm not saying I know where the line needs to be drawn, but there clearly is a line somewhere; "drink bleach to cure diseases" seems like a solid (and real!) example.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#79

Post by YinglingLight »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #57
namirez wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * The primary criticism against safe spaces is that they are an excuse to censor dissenting opinions. A common example is that people opposed to sex-reassignment surgery are not allowed into discussions about transgenderism* What a strange example! What is the "dissenting opinion" about sex-reassignment surgery and transgenderism? Is it not for individuals to decided? Why would this even be an issue in the public s…

For myself I am not against the procedure. I am against allowing children to do so without the consent of their parent. We don't let children drink, drive, or hold employment until certain ages. Yet is is completely fine for them to have life altering changes done to their bodies at very young ages.

Hell the parents are the ones pushing for it.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#80

Post by DuskStar »

tptacek wrote: post #75
crisdux wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is a good example of the critique at the top of this thread. You start with the worst possible interpretation of my comment, use a metaphor about bestiality and immediately dismiss my comment as a fallacy.

I understand why you'd read it that way and I'm sorry if I worded it carelessly, but I didn't make the "bestiality" thing up and wasn't implying that you were making that comparison. Those really were dots that people, including senior policymakers, connected. Something you might want to read up on is "the parade of horribles", which is what you're essentially invoking when you suggest that any government protection…

Except that the horrible in question - giving puberty blockers and other transgender treatments to children - is already happening, and I think I remember a case in Canada where that was done despite the wishes of the parents.
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