Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#261

Post by lokedhs » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #99

dclowd9901 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way they're going to develop a completely new plane. It may have new branding, but it's going to be a 737 at the bones. Since when has the airline industry ever considered passenger misery?

Airlines consider passenger misery a benefit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21530964 Jules Dupuit, describing rail carriages, though the same logic applies: It is not because of the several thousand francs which they would have to spend to cover the third class wagons or to upholster the benches. ... [I]t would happily sacrifice this [expense] for the sake of its popularity. Its goal is to stop the traveler wh…

Or you can do what many other airlines do, which is to make business class so much better that even if econony is nice, business class is so much above that that it's worth the money.

I tend to try to travel on Qatar, and their new business class cabins are amazing: https://www.qatarairways.com/en/onboard/qsuite.html

It's also cheaper than the (worse) business class on many other airlines.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#262

Post by Rebelgecko » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #228

Ill_ban_myself wrote: post #7

Started as an intern at Boeing in 1985. 34 year career down in flames. Ouch.

Hmm. There's been a lot of talk here about the Boeing culture vs. the Lockheed culture, and how the Lockheed culture took over after the merger. Yet the CEO was a Boeing guy, not a Lockheed guy.

Boeing and Lockheed aren't merged as companies, they're only combined for building launch vehicles. They created ULA as a joint venture. It was a weird situation where it made sense for both companies— Lockheed basically lost all of their trade secrets to Boeing after they did a crazy amount of industrial espionage. After a few Boeing employees went to jail, Boeing lost all of their launch contracts and were banned from bidding on any for a few years. Even after the ban ended they were in rough shape financially.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#263

Post by IMTDb » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

So in order to "restore confidence in the company" they put the finance guy in charge. I feel safer already.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#264

Post by Jamwinner » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #233

pizlonator wrote: post #215

So I read somewhere than Muilenburg was the only engineer in the Boeing C suite. There were no pilots in the C suite. And this was part of the problem. The new CEO has a degree in accounting. I bet he’ll do great.

At some point we (society at large) are going to realize these fluffy c-level people are toxic and remove value from companies - then, ideally, we'll move back to a default of promoting internally.

And then you just end up with all old, conservative c levels. There is no easy answer except careful hiring and accountability.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#265

Post by georgeecollins » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

papito wrote: post #260

Most business in the United States is done despite of management, not because of it. The executives lie and BS through all of it, and the soldiers on the ground kill themselves to get things done.

>> Most business in the United States is done despite of management, not because of it.

You must be very unhappy in your cubicle.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#266

Post by regoboss » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

regoboss wrote: post #70

happytoexplain wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if this is actually "brutal" in this context (a context I have no experience with)?

Compare with Equifax PR, after CEO Richard Smith was ousted because of the scandal: Richard Smith said, "Serving as CEO of Equifax has been an honor, and I'm indebted to the 10,000 Equifax employees who have dedicated their lives to making this a better company. "The cybersecurity incident has affected millions of consumers, and I have been completely dedicated to making this right. At this critical juncture, I belie…

according to Free Sentiment Analyzer:

- Equifax PR - sentiment score: +25.7

- Boeing PR - sentiment score: -100 (!!):

"The Board of Directors decided ... to repair relationships with regulators, customers, and all other stakeholders"

https://www.danielsoper.com/sentimentanalysis/default.aspx

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#267

Post by onlyrealcuzzo » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #238

softwaredoug wrote: post #188

Former Boeing employee here[1]: I remember when the company decided to do all 401k matching in Boeing stock in 2009. It seemed like a sketchy, borderline unethical way to keep the stock price afloat. All to say I’m happy to have transitioned all my 401k years ago! [1] I worked in the defense industry. Nothing to do with planes: my company was acquired by Boeing and operated relatively independently.

I love that idea for 401k matching. All the downsides of a pension [1], combined with all the downsides of a 401k[2], with none of the upsides of either! [1] If your employer goes belly up after you retire, you are screwed. [2] Because it's fixed contribution, as opposed to fixed payout, if you lived longer than you planned, you are screwed.

In fairness, issue two is probably better addressed at the national level -- something like what Social Security's original intention seemed to be: a safety blanket for those who lived much longer than expected.

In 1935 when SS was enacted, life expectancy was 61.7 years. benefits didn't kick in until the average person was dead by 3.3 years.

If this chart is accurate: http://vis.stanford.edu/jheer/d3/pyramid/shift.html -- it looks like in 1930 less than ~5% of the population was older than 65.

If this chart is accurate: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.65UP.TO.ZS?locat... -- it looks like ~15% of the population is currently older than 65.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#268

Post by dmix » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

lhopki01 wrote: post #166

dmix wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny how people treats unions as panaceas to all problems. It’s strange to present them as some sort of solution in this case, where there was widespread engineering and management cultural issues, and would therefore somehow have prevented major air disasters. Workers rights and forcing higher wages might be great for the working poor and it might actually make economic sense in certain niche industries where…

Just curious how you'd explain Germany and the high levels of unions in the export industries there? You can hardly say that there is little global competition or high levels of protectionism for them.

If there was ever a work culture that wouldn’t give in to the various temptations of inefficiencies and stupidities which unions offer you without consequence it’s the Germans.

They’ll work their ass off regardless if some piece of paper says they don’t really have to and if they don’t their peers will look down on them.

I highly recommend this video to highlight the cultural differences between the UK vs Germany (particularly the bit about using Facebook at work), which I think do matter a lot in these conversations:

https://youtu.be/mSQKtxJ-Uvk

I also think Americans are worse for challenging authority than the UK culture highlighted in that show clip.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#269

Post by Jamwinner » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #249

Rafuino wrote: post #164

If/when the 737 MAX comes back into service, I'm honestly going to actively avoid flying on it if at all possible. I doubt I'm alone in this.

I will fly on it. It will have gotten more scrutiny than other planes.

Yup, every pilot I know, even if they will never fly one, now knows what to do. None of them express any reservation other than the way flight control software is headed.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#270

Post by erikpukinskis » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #64

jacquesm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the normal standard is that 'x' has decided to spend more time with his family and is given a very nice golden parachute (pun definitely not intended nor applicable) this is indeed quite brutal. That doesn't rule out he will get lots of money for severance but it isn't going to come with a smile and a handshake.

If you pay me tens of millions of dollars to leave, you’re welcome to frown and talk crap about me all you like as you do it.

Are you an IC? It’s different for us... we are measured by our ability to get a job done.

Management doesn’t get anything “done”. Their job is to faithfully represent the interests of the managers above them. Maintaining good terms with their superiors is their only actual job. Everything else can be going to shit and as long as their superior feels they are faithfully representing their will, then that lower level manager is in good standing. In fact being in an inferno of chaos and still continuing to represent the interests of your superior, over the cries of the ICs, that is truly star-level manager performance.

As a side note, this is why managers don’t have employment protections (right to organize, etc). Their job is not to work, but to represent the company. In an important way they are not producing labor.

For someone like that, it’s actually crucial to leave on good terms. Especially the closer you get to the billionaire class, the circles get smaller and smaller, and it’s your ability to maintain good feelings with other people in that class that determines your ability to get future work.

So, the company can be failing... that’s fine. It’s important to management personnel that they leave with a kind word, because otherwise it meant they stopped doing their one job.