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Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

reuters.com

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Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#201

Post by dubliner2077 »

_ph_ wrote: post #48
devit wrote: post #11

Why isn't it enough to retrofit all past and future models with enough hardware redundancy and create a properly written MCAS software? Wasn't the design sound, except for the lack of hardware sensor redundancy and naively written software? Why do they need to stop production and so on?

Yes, fixing the MCAS software should solve the problem of the 737 MAX. But with all what happened, authorities are extra thorough before allowing the 737 MAX to fly again. Probably all what is needed is a few more months of patience. On the grand scale of things, the bigger issues with Boeing are how they do business and all the problems with their facturies that have surfaced recently. Beyond getting the 737 MAX to…

Unlikely you can fix that when even the processor gets overloaded by patches.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#202

Post by mihaaly »

MaupitiBlue wrote: post #22
philshem wrote: post #9

November 2019 New Yorker piece about what went wrong at Boeing https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/11/18/the-case-again... tl;dr engineers vs. accountants

BS! Which of these was done by the accountants? 1. Drive MCAS with only one AOA sensor. 2. Don't tell MCAS to look for (or even think about) bad AOA data or AOA disagreements. 3. Don't actually bother to tell pilots that they don't have AOA disagree warning lights. 4. Don't bother to tell pilots that MCAS exists at all. 5. Don't test MCAS subsystem to see what it actually does with bad AOA data. 6. Give MCAS a ridicu…

If you were following the articles then you'd know that various people did those on criteria set by management, independently in a non-communicating and problem oppressing organization structure created by the management.

So in short: all of those were caused by the accountants....

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#203

Post by ibejoeb »

CydeWeys wrote: post #32
devit wrote: post #11

Why isn't it enough to retrofit all past and future models with enough hardware redundancy and create a properly written MCAS software? Wasn't the design sound, except for the lack of hardware sensor redundancy and naively written software? Why do they need to stop production and so on?

Because these changes are going to require a new type certification, which defeats the entire point of just making a better 737 in the first place. It will no longer be nearly as appealing to airlines. They might actually be better off just axing the MAX entirely and continuing to produce the 737 NG, and then work on a clean sheet 737 replacement that doesn't suffer from all the compromises inherent in the MAX.

I'm sure it's slightly more complicated, but is the MAX not essentially a 737 airframe with larger engines mounter further forward? Seems like there's a lot to work with there. A new type certification, at this point, sounds pretty good. Otherwise, there ought to be a lot of salvageable product there.

I doubt that doing a new type cert is tantamount to engineering an entirely new airframe. I think the thing that makes it less appealing to airlines now is the lack of faith in the integrity of Boeing engineering in general.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#204

Post by InTheArena »

This writing has been on the wall since Alan Mulally was skipped over after Stonecipher was forced out. He went and rescued Ford, and he's 74, but a fast move to start shoring up things would be to name him chairman of Boeing, and start the process of a real leadership change.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#205

Post by lujim »

petilon wrote: post #43
devit wrote: post #11

Why isn't it enough to retrofit all past and future models with enough hardware redundancy and create a properly written MCAS software? Wasn't the design sound, except for the lack of hardware sensor redundancy and naively written software? Why do they need to stop production and so on?

If that was all that's needed 737 Max's would all be back in the air by now. There is a fundamental problem in the design. The plane tends to pitch up when accelerating. Under certain circumstances this can cause the plane to stall and fall out of the sky. This was fixed using software. Most planes have airframes that are aerodynamically stable in and of itself. The 737 Max requires software assistance to be at the s…

I agree with you, but would like one counterpoint. There are plenty of planes that are aerodynamically unstable and require fly by wire/computers for satisfactory flight characteristics.

Fighters like relaxed aerodynamic roll stability for roll rate. Now pitch stability issues are troubling. I don't think engineers would purposely relax pitch stability unless they had to.

I guess I'm saying you might want an airplane aerodynamically unstable in roll, but pretty much never in pitch so the fly by wire argument might not be valid here.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#206

Post by toomuchtodo »

linuxftw wrote: post #156
jefe_ wrote: post #114

Boeing was still promising end of year FAA certification for 737 Max as recently as early December. Around that time, they had a spokesperson on CNBC who was asked directly how the outstanding steps (which indicated February at the earliest) aligned with their end of year statements and the position was essentially, 'we've been saying end of year and end of year could still happen.' When your brand is suffering a cri…

> 'we've been saying end of year and end of year could still happen.' Deliberately false and misleading statements that should be prosecuted by the SEC.

I filed an SEC complaint, own a single share of Boeing to have standing. Hopefully something comes of it.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#207

Post by tw04 »

mikepurvis wrote: post #136
CydeWeys wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because these changes are going to require a new type certification, which defeats the entire point of just making a better 737 in the first place. It will no longer be nearly as appealing to airlines. They might actually be better off just axing the MAX entirely and continuing to produce the 737 NG, and then work on a clean sheet 737 replacement that doesn't suffer from all the compromises inherent in the MAX.

What does that mean for all the Max units currently out there and grounded, though? Obviously there's going to be a huge and drawn-out lawsuit over this, but it seems like at the end of the day, the airlines involved will still end up having to train their pilots on those planes in order to get them back in the air, and at that point, they might as well have a bunch more of them anyway. And if they're doing the new-p…

I would assume a buyback as part of the write-down. I'm not sure any airline wants to be one of the handful of "lucky" ones that have the only MAX's in the air. Sounds like a great way to lose customers.

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#209

Post by mihaaly »

aguyfromnb wrote: post #51
MaupitiBlue wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BS! Which of these was done by the accountants? 1. Drive MCAS with only one AOA sensor. 2. Don't tell MCAS to look for (or even think about) bad AOA data or AOA disagreements. 3. Don't actually bother to tell pilots that they don't have AOA disagree warning lights. 4. Don't bother to tell pilots that MCAS exists at all. 5. Don't test MCAS subsystem to see what it actually does with bad AOA data. 6. Give MCAS a ridicu…

> BS! Which of these was done by the accountants? HackerNews, generally, has a hate on for "business people", who are seen as evil, ne'er-do-wells, while the "engineers" are innocent employees, merely following orders. I think it's because most people here see themselves as the engineer type, and this mindset allows them to feel better about the work they're doing, be it emissions scandals, ad-tech, building the surv…

The story here was unfolded by The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic and perhaps more uncovering and analyzing the facts and events.

These are not the typical engineering biased organization if you ask me... but still they put very strong blame on the organizational and company culture changes created by 'accountants' allowing ineffective and in many cases oppressed situations, leading to repeated disasters!

Do not try to misdirect this very serious story into primitive occupation bias please!

Re: Boeing CEO ousted as 737 Max crisis deepens

#210

Post by [deleted] »

linuxftw wrote: post #162
golergka wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good accountants know not only about the bottom line of the yearly budget, but also about how long-term risks work, too. As an software engineer, it's very seductive to bad-mouth other professions, especially the suits (MBAs, accountants and other "dirty money people"), but objectively speaking, there's nothing inherently bad or inferior about them.

Bean counters don't have any ability to understand if their reports are lying to them. If all their reports are saying "all systems go" and there isn't anyone doing any fact-checking, how can the organization be successful?

[deleted]
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