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People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

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Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#151

Post by bprieto »

hutzlibu wrote: post #86
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read "factfulness". It annoys me when people talk of the current world and time in negative tones when it is best we have ever had by many measurements. Not that we are having a terrible time, but it is cool to think negatively of the world it seems to me.

"when it is best we have ever had by many measurements" Not really. By an ecologist measuring it is the worst world we have since the last ice age and getting worse every day. So sure, when you don't give a sh*t about nature, you can have your happy bubble of constant happy developement and improvement, but otherwise not. Oh and of course you also have to have a good air filter installed, as air pollution is a real t…

"it is the worst world we have since the last ice age"

It isn't.

We have more forests now than 35 years ago [1] Ecological footprint is decreasing in Europe [2] Death rates from air pollution are dropping [3]

Thanks to technology we can have an amazing quality of life that not even nobility could dream of a hundred years ago, but we are also doing it in a more sustainable way.

[1] https://psmag.com/environment/the-planet-now-has-more-trees-... [2] https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/ecologica... [3] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-from-air-poll...

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#152

Post by hadiz »

celim307 wrote: post #139
hadiz wrote: post #130

"Optimism Bias" improves our mental and physical well-being. Biases are irrational, by definition. Our mind is supposedly rational...and rationality is not always to our benefit. This kinda blew my mind when I was reading up some philosophy. My key takeaway was that rationality and logic is not always helpful to make decisions, esp. when it comes to complex systems such as people (i.e. relationships). As an engineer,…

Most memorable advice I got from my engineering professor: “you can get pretty far on feelings”

All feelings are true, but they might not be valid. Invalid feelings are less actionable

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#153

Post by minblaster »

hadiz wrote: post #130

"Optimism Bias" improves our mental and physical well-being. Biases are irrational, by definition. Our mind is supposedly rational...and rationality is not always to our benefit. This kinda blew my mind when I was reading up some philosophy. My key takeaway was that rationality and logic is not always helpful to make decisions, esp. when it comes to complex systems such as people (i.e. relationships). As an engineer,…

We like to think of rationality as objectively true, but it’s not. Rationality is based on axioms that “feel right” and even the idea of being rational “feels good”.

Is it rational to believe the parallel postulate? In unchanging laws of physics? In using logic with creatures who tend not to share your axioms?

It comes down to a feeling. From a rational point of view, if rationality were always helpful it would be highly selected for, yet it is not.

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#154

Post by throwaway_tech »

hadiz wrote: post #130

"Optimism Bias" improves our mental and physical well-being. Biases are irrational, by definition. Our mind is supposedly rational...and rationality is not always to our benefit. This kinda blew my mind when I was reading up some philosophy. My key takeaway was that rationality and logic is not always helpful to make decisions, esp. when it comes to complex systems such as people (i.e. relationships). As an engineer,…

>Biases are irrational, by definition.

Not all biases are irrational...in fact most biases are in rational predispositions based on knowledge and/or first hand experience. Basically its an attempt to apply logic/rationality to unknown situations.

Bias is always framed as a negative word/trait, and it certainly can be (like racial prejudice), but bias should also be looked at as an evolutionary tool humans can use to apply past learned experiences to similar situations in the future.

Just as an example, motorcycle riders may have a bias against certain types of vehicles because of their training/experience, and they apply this bias when making decisions that impact their safety on the road, even though the specific vehicle/situation may not pose a danger. In an evolutionary context, maybe you saw a fury 4 legged animal kill one of the members of your tribe, so you apply a bias against all 4 legged fury animals. Now you don't know if all fury 4 legged animals are dangerous, or pose a threat, but at the same time its no irrational to apply the bias because in potentially life/death situations it may be better safe than sorry. Obviously its good to keep and open mind, maybe you can train such an animal and it may even turn out to be your best friend, but nothing wrong with approaching the situation with your bias either.

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#155

Post by abecedarius »

asdfman123 wrote: post #131
aytekin wrote: post #38

More likely: "People who live 85 or more have more of the good things like health and safe environment which also makes them optimistic."

I thought that too, but then read the second paragraph: > That finding was independent of other factors thought to influence life's length — such as "socioeconomic status, health conditions, depression, social integration, and health behaviors," the researchers from Boston University School of Medicine and the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health say.

"Controlling for Confounders Is Harder than You Think" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#156

Post by htk »

bad_user wrote: post #150
htk wrote: post #146

Correlation does not imply causation. The paragraph stating that the “finding was independent of other factors” doesn’t really inspire confidence, there are countless factors that might impact the results.

Cohort studies cannot show causation, indeed, but that's not very relevant for what's being claimed. And what they are saying with " finding was independent of other factors " is that they adjusted for demographics and health conditions. Yes, there are countless factors that could impact the results, the adjustments are not perfect, but cohorts are useful clues and in the large scheme of things, if you are optimistic…

I might have read too much into it, but it’s easy for readers to extrapolate to “if you become more optimistic you’ll live longer”. A parallel would be to read “people who wear XXL are more likely to be fat”, where forcing to wear a smaller size won’t make them thinner.

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#157

Post by mistermann »

nkrisc wrote: post #149
hadiz wrote: post #130

"Optimism Bias" improves our mental and physical well-being. Biases are irrational, by definition. Our mind is supposedly rational...and rationality is not always to our benefit. This kinda blew my mind when I was reading up some philosophy. My key takeaway was that rationality and logic is not always helpful to make decisions, esp. when it comes to complex systems such as people (i.e. relationships). As an engineer,…

Personally I've found the one reliable metric I have with which to evaluate decisions is: happiness. Everything else is inherently externally derived and I might have good models of how they affect me, but I can neither control nor reliably predict them. For example, I have a good idea of how something will impact me financially, but only to a point. I also can't actually control that outcome. How something affects m…

> Personally I've found the one reliable metric I have with which to evaluate decisions is: happiness.

It's very similar, but rather than optimizing for happiness, I prefer Terence McKenna's advice to optimize for beauty...

The Good , The True and The Beautiful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-J09gk0mJk

To me this seems superior in that it seems to be more all-encompassing, and can be more easily applied to others and the greater world, for me. But then happiness could very well do the same for you - I think it's the style of thinking (the means by which one evaluates options when choosing a course of action) involved that is the main point.

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#158

Post by mensetmanusman »

abecedarius wrote: post #155
asdfman123 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that too, but then read the second paragraph: > That finding was independent of other factors thought to influence life's length — such as "socioeconomic status, health conditions, depression, social integration, and health behaviors," the researchers from Boston University School of Medicine and the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health say.

"Controlling for Confounders Is Harder than You Think" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Hard, but not impossible.

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#159

Post by mensetmanusman »

tomp wrote: post #143
mindfulgeek wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the most positive people I’ve met have lived in the worst of circumstances. The mind decides what it wants about the situation. Optimism is a powerful tool, even if only the person using it can feel the difference.

But that’s not what’s being discussed. Does optimism actually make you live a longer and more successful life, or is your life equally short and shitty, you just enjoy it more?

Many of the wealthiest people are unhappy

Re: People who tend to be optimistic are likelier to live to 85 or more: study

#160

Post by chimprich »

hutzlibu wrote: post #86
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read "factfulness". It annoys me when people talk of the current world and time in negative tones when it is best we have ever had by many measurements. Not that we are having a terrible time, but it is cool to think negatively of the world it seems to me.

"when it is best we have ever had by many measurements" Not really. By an ecologist measuring it is the worst world we have since the last ice age and getting worse every day. So sure, when you don't give a sh*t about nature, you can have your happy bubble of constant happy developement and improvement, but otherwise not. Oh and of course you also have to have a good air filter installed, as air pollution is a real t…

> the worst world we have since the last ice age

Yes and no. By some measures we have; CO2 and other greenhouse gases for example. Other things have improved; the ozone layer is repairing itself, and many countries have much better standards for clean water and so on.

We should address the problems we have but it's easy to despair and do nothing if we're too pessimistic.

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