Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#171

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #115

jacobolus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even native speakers of a language in its native country are explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary in school It is not that there’s no value whatsoever in formal study of grammar. It might come in handy if you want to be a linguist, an editor, a high-level writer, a lawyer, or the like. If students want to take a grammar course in high school or college that seems okay with me. It just doesn’t teach basic langua…

> Native speakers don’t start studying grammar until they have had 10+ years of full-time experience with the language. Untrue; formal grammar instruction begins not later than first grade in many curricula, which is age 6-7, which would require using the language several years before birth to reach 10+ years prior use. Native speakers begin studying grammar about as soon as they have the intellectual capacity to com…

I can remember being taught about grammar in first grade. And getting it wrong at first.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#172

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #76

jacobolus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even native speakers of a language in its native country are explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary in school It is not that there’s no value whatsoever in formal study of grammar. It might come in handy if you want to be a linguist, an editor, a high-level writer, a lawyer, or the like. If students want to take a grammar course in high school or college that seems okay with me. It just doesn’t teach basic langua…

But I don't follow the basic assumption that the way native speakers become fluent is particularly effective. No matter how much explicit instruction helps, native speakers couldn't learn basic fluency that way, because there's no way to deliver explicit instruction to a baby.

I've heard toddlers learn about 7 words a week.

When I'm into a new language I can learn 20-50 words a day, sustainably. Short term more.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#173

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:45 AM UTC

james_s_tayler wrote: post #121

bayesian_horse wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how…

>Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all So not true. Maybe depends on the way you study but I focus on listening skills hardcore early on. It's what helps build the natural accent. It's definitely not all or nothing. Ther…

We may not have the same definition of listening comprehension.

When I start learning a new language, I can totally "listen comprehend" stuff that's close to the material I already studied. But the same isn't true for random content at realistic speed.

And the "island" part is compatible with "all or nothing". Because yes, within those islands, you understand everything, and over time, as your proficiency in the language grows, there are more islands of knowing all the words. But it seems to be a lot easier at first to get told what a word means and how it is used, rather than depending on it to appear in a useful context a couple hundred times.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#174

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:48 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #41

bayesian_horse wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, I'd say the Pimsleur method is quite good at teaching every-day language. Which is a worthwhile task, but the range of words is quite limited. I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical. Of course, most people will start speakind and listening, in various forms, in phase 1 and 2…

> I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical. I have passed HSK4. I am not competent in Mandarin listening comprehension, or in speaking (to be fair, speaking isn't a part of the test). Those skills aren't necessary to pass. The audio samples for HSK4 are a lot more generous with yo…

I meant more like "HSK-4 vocabulary without characters".

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#175

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:49 AM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #59

bayesian_horse wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, I'd say the Pimsleur method is quite good at teaching every-day language. Which is a worthwhile task, but the range of words is quite limited. I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical. Of course, most people will start speakind and listening, in various forms, in phase 1 and 2…

The range of words you learn with Pimsleur is limited because the method makes sure you actually retain every word it tries to teach you. Having a solid grasp of a small vocabulary (a few hundred words) is an excellent way to start off with a language. > But I think you won't be able to really grok "random" speech before having a good grasp at pretty much all the vocabulary you would encounter. But you will be able t…

Yes, which is why I say the phases overlap. I still think theory should dominate the first phase of learning a language, followed by mostly reading.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#176

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:52 AM UTC

lazyant wrote: post #154

bayesian_horse wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how…

> Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. Speaking is harder > The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. Disagree; you can make sense of parts of a sentence and infer the rest or get some clues; actually that's the normal state while learning. Eg: "How do I go to…

In my experience I can have studied a language for a period of time and still only understand gibberish when confronted with truly random sentences by natives.

Your example isn't really random. You already seem to recognize the pattern. But there are a LOT of patterns.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#177

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:56 AM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #126

bayesian_horse wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how…

> he first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how the language is used. Additionally writing things, chatting and the like. Third phase is immersion with speaking and listening. This is an excellent description of the process I used to learn to speak 3 foreign languages to a level of pr…

I don't think it depends on the individual, but rather on goals.

If you want to speak a language in a useful but relatively broken way, as fast as possible (for example as a refugee), you might want to prioritize a smaller amount of theory and more practice early on. But that would actually prolong the time to proficiency.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#178

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:00 AM UTC

jaredklewis wrote: post #102

bayesian_horse wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how…

This hasn't been my experience. My experience has been that listening is basically a way to learn the language with a minimum of effort. Context and non-verbal communication often make it clear what many unknown words in a sentence mean, making it not only possible to understand speech far above one's vocabulary level, but to actually to increase one's vocabulary through listening. These non-verbal cues and context a…

"Children" take almost 20 years to learn English at high proficiency.

And the context stuff doesn't work for me in audio, not until years into a language. It might be easier with a language close to my native, but otherwise...

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#179

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:02 AM UTC

romaaeterna wrote: post #161

topmonk wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but what is your exact technique? Do you periodically pause the tape so you can follow along with it using the book in written form? Or just plain listen? Also, are you studying Chinese this way or a language more similar to English? With all the different grammar and word order in Chinese, I can't see how I could pick up the meaning without some reference, unless I was extremely familiar with the material. Edit:…

I've done it or some variation with German, Latin, Japanese, Norwegian, and Russian. My method is to listen is small chunks (like a paragraph or so), a bunch of times, and gradually expand the length. > I can't see how I could pick up the meaning without some reference, unless I was extremely familiar with the material. You would be surprised at how good you are at it. The human brain is built for picking up a langua…

I'm still a bit confused of how one is supposed to decipher a Language like Japanese or Chinese without any reference. I certainly was never able to do it.

Only after years of studying more theoretically am I able to learn new words from context.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#180

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 11:04 AM UTC

g_langenderfer wrote: post #87

bayesian_horse wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how…

Does a child know grammar and vocabulary? Understanding and producing the sounds of a language seem to be the elementary units.

A child knows grammar and vocabulary, most often by being taught explicitly. Yes they pick up stuff, but they are corrected all the time.

And children don't have the level of language skill you normally want to achieve.