Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#161

Post by romaaeterna » Sun, Dec 22, 2019, 11:41 PM UTC

topmonk wrote: post #160

romaaeterna wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with movies (and TV), I find, is that it is fewer words per minute than a book. Though availability of English language television seems to be a great aid for ESL learners, so it's not wasted time at all. Conversation practice with a native speaker is probably the ideal, but audiobooks are cheap and available. You can get around the disadvantage of not having a native trying to make themselves understood…

Ok, but what is your exact technique? Do you periodically pause the tape so you can follow along with it using the book in written form? Or just plain listen? Also, are you studying Chinese this way or a language more similar to English? With all the different grammar and word order in Chinese, I can't see how I could pick up the meaning without some reference, unless I was extremely familiar with the material. Edit:…

I've done it or some variation with German, Latin, Japanese, Norwegian, and Russian.

My method is to listen is small chunks (like a paragraph or so), a bunch of times, and gradually expand the length.

> I can't see how I could pick up the meaning without some reference, unless I was extremely familiar with the material.

You would be surprised at how good you are at it. The human brain is built for picking up a language from scratch by listening, and human languages are similarly built for being acquired in this way.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#162

Post by topmonk » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

romaaeterna wrote: post #161

topmonk wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but what is your exact technique? Do you periodically pause the tape so you can follow along with it using the book in written form? Or just plain listen? Also, are you studying Chinese this way or a language more similar to English? With all the different grammar and word order in Chinese, I can't see how I could pick up the meaning without some reference, unless I was extremely familiar with the material. Edit:…

I've done it or some variation with German, Latin, Japanese, Norwegian, and Russian. My method is to listen is small chunks (like a paragraph or so), a bunch of times, and gradually expand the length. > I can't see how I could pick up the meaning without some reference, unless I was extremely familiar with the material. You would be surprised at how good you are at it. The human brain is built for picking up a langua…

Well, sounds good, then. I'll give it a shot, thanks.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#163

Post by XOPJ » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 3:41 AM UTC

drastorguev wrote: post #157

unforeseen9991 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on my PC running Chrome you haven't either

OK, could we please ask - did you access the website before we made the changes? If so - have you tried clearing your browser cache?

Just tried is now for the first time, 8 hours since you commented and it instantly asked for my microphone and I instinctively blocked it.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#164

Post by drastorguev » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:54 AM UTC

XOPJ wrote: post #163

drastorguev wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, could we please ask - did you access the website before we made the changes? If so - have you tried clearing your browser cache?

Just tried is now for the first time, 8 hours since you commented and it instantly asked for my microphone and I instinctively blocked it.

Thanks for letting us know - we've realised we were unclear with our initial correction: the modal that asks for mic permission and explains that all audio processing is done in-browser now only appears when 'Record' is pressed, so users can check out the rest of the website.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#165

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:14 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #38

bayesian_horse wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how…

> Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. [...] The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how the language is used. Additionally writing things, chatting and the like. Third phase is immersion with speaking and listening. To clarify:…

I've heard the idea that somehow "front-loading" doesn't work. For one thing, it does. I have done it, repeatedly. I have rarely heard people have success without devoting a lot of time on "front-loading".

You have to learn the grammar rules somehow. If you want to do it through assimilation, as supposed to somebody telling you how it works, well, that's possible but takes a lot longer and is more error prone.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do "output" exercises. I'm just saying that in order to learn information, you better receive it somehow. And you can receive that information either in an orderly fashion ("front-loading") or in a random incomplete fashion. You can't guess your way through language learning.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#166

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:16 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #69

EliRivers wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Front-loading explicit study of grammar is a total waste of time. I am far more competent in written Japanese than spoken, both reading and writing it, essentially through understanding grammar. "Total waste of time" seems a harsh appraisal.

If you take two novices and dump one into arbitrarily extensive grammar lessons for 2 years, and the other into spending a couple hours per day listening (i.e. actively focusing attention on trying to understand what is being said) to the language for 2 years, at the end the first person won’t speak the language and the second person will. The first person is going to learn something , but it’s not an efficient use o…

I haven't seen any research that says passive listening without instruction has any effect at all.

You may have some success in a language related to your native language. Good luck with something truly foreign...

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#167

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:19 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #107

tasogare wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>spending a couple hours per day listening [...] to the language for 2 years, at the end the first person won’t speak the language and the second person will. It doesn’t work like that. For the student to make any progress he need to be able to understand most of the things in the speech (this is called comprehensible input, and the theory is both applicable to listening and reading). That’s why there are people livi…

> (this is called comprehensible input, and the theory is both applicable to listening and reading) Notice the link I put in my first comment. Yes, the more comprehensible the early exposure, the faster the student will advance at the beginning. If content is too advanced learning will be much slower. It would be great if more language teachers and curricula put more significant effort into developing hiqh-quality ma…

Yes, formal grammar instruction is optional. But it does accelerate things.

I mean, it may depend on your goals. If you are focused on communicating, and don't actually intend on using the language efficiently and competently, then maybe formal grammar is a waste of time.

Otherwise you need to have this information. You have a choice to get it in a systematic way or to decipher it on your own.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#168

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:22 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #127

tasogare wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>spending a couple hours per day listening [...] to the language for 2 years, at the end the first person won’t speak the language and the second person will. It doesn’t work like that. For the student to make any progress he need to be able to understand most of the things in the speech (this is called comprehensible input, and the theory is both applicable to listening and reading). That’s why there are people livi…

By the way, here’s Krashen (the comprehensible input guy): http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/teaching_grammar_w... > Research on the relationship between formal grammar instruction and performance on measures of writing ability is very consistent: There is no relationship between grammar study and writing (Krashen, 1984). Perhaps the most convincing research is that of Elley, Barham, Lamb and Wyllie (1976). A…

Good luck learning romanic or slavic grammar from "comprehensible input".

And the thing Krashen seems to be talking about is actually phase 2 in my model. The students may have taken the long way towards basic knowledge in English, but in order to advance, they need to spend time reading text to assimilate the grammar and vocabulary more.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#169

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:28 AM UTC

jaco8 wrote: post #131

jacobolus wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way, here’s Krashen (the comprehensible input guy): http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/teaching_grammar_w... > Research on the relationship between formal grammar instruction and performance on measures of writing ability is very consistent: There is no relationship between grammar study and writing (Krashen, 1984). Perhaps the most convincing research is that of Elley, Barham, Lamb and Wyllie (1976). A…

Well , there are 2 different kinds of learners. There are those who need grammar and those who do not. I can remember vocabulary but never remembered the grammar of the 4 languages I learnt over the years.

To use a language efficiently and proficiently, you need to know all the grammar. Regardless if you have learned them systematically or if you have deciphered them by yourself. The latter might be somewhat easier if the foreign language is close to your own language, which means you already got that information. I've found Indoeuropean languages much easier to learn than others.

Sometimes even the definition of "grammar" is confusing. If you study Indoeuropean languages, they are so similar that "studying" grammar is mostly getting the conjugation and declination right. Sometimes you only have to switch some endings between languages. With other languages, the entire system of morphology is different, because for example they have more "persons" or whatever.

Additionally, English or Chinese may seem to have easier grammar, but then the complexity is hidden in the vocabulary or usage patterns.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#170

Post by bayesian_horse » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:33 AM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #133

jacobolus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. [...] The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how the language is used. Additionally writing things, chatting and the like. Third phase is immersion with speaking and listening. To clarify:…

One problem with comprehensible input methods (like what Rosetta Stone does?) is that it can be extremely boring as an adult and ultimately demotivating. Studying grammar can be fun - and it feels like an accomplishment to be able to say some pretty complex things in Chinese. Sure my listening isn't that great.. but on the other hand being limited to a two year old's conversation ability isn't particularly enticing.…

In my opinion it takes years to be able to comprehend random sentences uttered by native speakers, in pretty much any language. It just takes a brain that amount of time to short-cut and organize all the information in an efficient enough manner.