Live data from Hacker News

Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

wsj.com

141–150 of 154 posts

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#141
post #21

> As of October, U.S. scrap exports of plastic to mainland China were down 89% since early 2017, when China began to make clear it would ban many categories, while mixed paper exports were down 96%, according to the Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries. Total U.S. plastic scrap exports to all countries were down 64% in that time period, while mixed paper exports were down 42% according to ISRI. The article doesn't…

Another anecdote, but I was in Shanghai last month and they recently started an initiative to sort trash/recyclables much more strictly. The people I was staying with were telling me that they could be fined if they don't properly sort their trash.

Not sure if it's related.

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current German system is nothing compared to the former East German bottle reuse system. Disclaimer: I grew up in East Germany, and during a summer break when I still was at school I worked in a small local brewery in the bottling facility at various machines for a few weeks, seeing the system in action. In East Germany we only had very few bottle designs that were used throughout the entire country and all firms…

Unfortunately bottle shapes and designs are often seen as part of a brand identity, so any attempt to introduce standardized containers will be fought tooth and nail.

Thus demonstrating that brand identity, advertising and marketing are all part of the problem.

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#143
post #38

Automated sorting works fine. The newer recycling plants need no human pickers. It's not the robotics startups that are the ones to watch. It's companies like Bulk Handling Systems, from Oregon, which integrates different kinds of machines into a recycling line where mixed junk comes in one end and bales of useful stuff come out the other. They view the robotic grabbers as "automated quality control units". The mecha…

I was part of a software project for BHS several years ago. We were taking the cad models for a entire plant and rendering them in the web with info/marketing media for each module. The speed that they could sort material at different stages was incredible. I don't remember seeing a single "robotic arm" picking anything. It was all air and mechanical sorting. Very cool stuff. They should have videos of most their mod…

Mechanical sorting (like shoe sorters) is very effective for discrete objects. Really cool to see stuff flying down a belt at 20mph+, get scanned/imaged from all sides, then thrown down one of 50 chutes without stopping.

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#144
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the entity that makes the trash should pay for it. That would reduce the amount of packaging that is made by forcing the cost on the producer. If I'm going to be forced to live in a supply side economy, then the supply side should pay the taxes. The same is true for the huge numbers of empty Walmarts throughout the US. We should have made them escrow demolition costs at the time the building was made. If you put t…

Is an aluminium can trash? Or is it highly recyclable material? That’s largely a decision of the consumer, not the manufacturer.

"Recyclable material" is a type of trash...

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#145
More and more I'm starting to think that people must be responsible for their entire trash output. Every thing you buy, from food to electronics to cars and even houses, you are responsible for: food scraps, packaging, recyclable materials, e-waste, old appliances, scrap vehicles, etc.

You are are responsible for having near-zero footprint in your life, where this number should be universal for rich and poor alike. You must bear whatever effort or cost to live within this footprint. You must make choices to not acquire things that will become trash and you must take steps to ensure what you need to dispose of goes into proper channels. You will probably want collective solutions to minimize cost and maximize efficiency. You also need regulations to handle compliance and governments to ensure the fair application thereof. Yes, this is an expensive ideal, yet the opposite seems hard to justify morally.

Current modern life is using fossil energy, natural resources, and land area on Earth to live a life of ease and deferred responsibility. Just because there is still space to make landfills and air/soil not yet saturated with pollutants, what right do we have to take it?

The way this might be similar to CO2 "waste" is an exercise left to the reader.

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article says that 99% of waste is recycled in Sweden, but also points out that a large part of that is incinerated. I don't really understand how incineration can be called recycling. The cycle literally ends at that point. That's not to say it's better than many alternatives (the article claims it's better than most landfills), but let's call it what it is.

If you replace an oil-fired power plant with an incineration plant you save oil that you can now use to make high quality plastic. If you squint hard enough that is recycling trash to oil. Of course oil-fired power plants aren't really used anymore (at grid scale), so it's more like recycling trash into coal or natural gas.

The fact that incinerating trash may lead to using slightly oil is not recycling. Just like driving your car more slowly to increase its efficiency is not recycling. I don't remotely understand your reasoning.

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#147
post #38

Automated sorting works fine. The newer recycling plants need no human pickers. It's not the robotics startups that are the ones to watch. It's companies like Bulk Handling Systems, from Oregon, which integrates different kinds of machines into a recycling line where mixed junk comes in one end and bales of useful stuff come out the other. They view the robotic grabbers as "automated quality control units". The mecha…

I was part of a software project for BHS several years ago. We were taking the cad models for a entire plant and rendering them in the web with info/marketing media for each module. The speed that they could sort material at different stages was incredible. I don't remember seeing a single "robotic arm" picking anything. It was all air and mechanical sorting. Very cool stuff. They should have videos of most their mod…

The first recycling robot was installed only three years ago.[1] There's been considerable progress since then. BHS is now installing and reselling the MAX-AI robotic picker, which seems to be a recent addition to their product line. This is out of the experimental stage and in use at high-volume sites. Expensive up front, about $200K each and $160K for installation and integration. Each one replaces about 2 people, plus the robots can run 2 or 3 shifts, so payback time is maybe 3 years.

There are some VC-funded companies in this area, but the vision/AI part is pretty much solved. It's getting the mechanical systems to be robust enough in a very dirty environment that's hard.

The big insight is that most of the separation has to be done by cheaper processes operating on the bulk material stream. The robotic system is just to pull out stuff that didn't get sorted correctly by screens, drums, shakers, magnets, blowers, and vision-based air jet sorters. An all-robot system is too slow and too expensive, but quality control robots for getting from 5% contamination to 0.5% contamination are cost-effective. Here's a good video of the whole process.[2] 70 tons an hour.

That makes it possible to get contamination levels down to China's new standards and the ones of US plants which can use the stuff. "Because of China's voracious appetite for all types of U.S. scrap exports over the past 20 years, MRFs "had the luxury of being able to sell the mixed rigid plastics [and] mixed paper without a lot of sorting and quality control." ... "Some materials are up in price … PET is actually increasing. It's a supply and demand thing," Butler said. "For the most part, if you can separate that material, there are domestic markets for that right now."[3]

So, in the recycling industry, some are whining about China's policies and others are fixing the problem, shipping products, and making money. It's small and medium sized cities that can't keep up. The big cities have big plants with multiple 70 ton per hour processing lines with the machinery running 2 shifts a day, and direct deals with companies that can use the plastics, metals, etc. A small town doesn't generate enough recycling to do that, and trucking unsorted material long distances is too expensive.

[1] https://resource-recycling.com/recycling/2019/05/07/how-recy...

[2] https://youtu.be/4FpsH_ETT7c

[3] https://www.wastedive.com/news/china-contamination-standard-...

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was part of a software project for BHS several years ago. We were taking the cad models for a entire plant and rendering them in the web with info/marketing media for each module. The speed that they could sort material at different stages was incredible. I don't remember seeing a single "robotic arm" picking anything. It was all air and mechanical sorting. Very cool stuff. They should have videos of most their mod…

The first recycling robot was installed only three years ago.[1] There's been considerable progress since then. BHS is now installing and reselling the MAX-AI robotic picker, which seems to be a recent addition to their product line. This is out of the experimental stage and in use at high-volume sites. Expensive up front, about $200K each and $160K for installation and integration. Each one replaces about 2 people,…

Very insightful and cool to hear about new tech making it into the MRFs. I was impressed back in~2014 so I bet there are way neater techniques now days.

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy is already massively skewed against low income people; they’re already “gouged” in a dozen other ways. The solution for that is UBI, not giving up on the environment.

Oh, very practical, so we'll just gouge them until we get UBI sorted then?

There are countless ways to improve the situation for the poor from being gouged in countless other ways. Telling the environment to fuck off isn’t among the more sensible ones.

Re: Recycling Rethink: What to Do with Trash Now China Won’t Take It

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, very practical, so we'll just gouge them until we get UBI sorted then?

There are countless ways to improve the situation for the poor from being gouged in countless other ways. Telling the environment to fuck off isn’t among the more sensible ones.

You flipped the consequent. I'm not suggesting we should tell the environment off, I'm suggesting we shouldn't solve our issues by charging the poor a 1000% markup they can't afford. I also think it's unethical to fix world hunger by eating children for what it's worth, as convenient as that might be.
Post reply on HN