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Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

mandarintonetrainer.com

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Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#151

Post by jacobolus »

comex wrote: post #137
jacobolus wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way, here’s Krashen (the comprehensible input guy): http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/teaching_grammar_w... > Research on the relationship between formal grammar instruction and performance on measures of writing ability is very consistent: There is no relationship between grammar study and writing (Krashen, 1984). Perhaps the most convincing research is that of Elley, Barham, Lamb and Wyllie (1976). A…

The essay you linked is about teaching English grammar to native English speakers. I looked it up, and Krashen has written about second-language acquisition as well, but you're citing the wrong thing.

You’re right. It was elsewhere in this discussion tree that we were discussing grammar instruction in a student’s native language. Feel free to mentally move it, if that helps.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#152

Post by unforeseen9991 »

phyrex wrote: post #150
drastorguev wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the feedback! We didn't realise this would pose such a problem. We've updated the website so it asks for microphone permission after people press the 'Record' button.

Not on my iPhone you haven’t

Not on my PC running Chrome you haven't either

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#153

Post by romaaeterna »

topmonk wrote: post #116
romaaeterna wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. Completely backwards, in my experience. Start with simple audiobooks, listen to them a million times, and you will be amazed by how much comprehension and speaking ability it gives you

Sounds interesting. I've been trying to use movies (something called "substudy"* which converts subtitled movies to a csv file which I then import them as cards into anki), but I find it very difficult. Could you point me in the direction of some of these simple audio books? * substudy is here: http://www.randomhacks.net/substudy/

The problem with movies (and TV), I find, is that it is fewer words per minute than a book. Though availability of English language television seems to be a great aid for ESL learners, so it's not wasted time at all.

Conversation practice with a native speaker is probably the ideal, but audiobooks are cheap and available. You can get around the disadvantage of not having a native trying to make themselves understood to you, by using an audiobook that you know well in translation. So I find that knowing the book well in my native language (or another language I know) is the most important initial requirement. Beyond that, it should be in simple language, though not boring. Maybe middle school or high school reading level.

On the first listen of chapter one, I find, I don't pick up more than the characters' names. After one or two dozen listens of chapter one, and I can follow the plot along pretty well (if it's a book I know), and can pick up words from context, and can start listening to the whole book.

Audio versions of the Bible are available in every language, and can be used as a first/last resort, depending on interest. If you can't find an audiobook Bible from the normal web apps, the Jehovah's Witnesses have audio versions in an insane number of languages (translated from their sometimes peculiar English version though). I like Tolkien, which is at about the right level, has audiobooks in many languages, and is familiar to me.

Grammar comes in very slowly using this method, and can use some augmentation using traditional methods. Pronunciation and comprehension, however, are supercharged.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#154

Post by lazyant »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #24
yomly wrote: post #14

From experience of trying to converse with actual fluent speakers of Mandarin, there is a huge gap going from what you learn in the classroom, where you practise the tones in slow-mo, and how people speak and listen in reality. IMO there's no replacement for hardcore practise here - at the end of the day it is most like a physical skill so the learning tools you use for practising an instrument or sports technique ar…

Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language. The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all. The first phase of language learning is mostly theory. Mostly vocabulary and grammar. The second phase is mostly reading, reinforcing the theory, forming a good understanding of how…

> Listening comprehension, IMHO is the last skill to develop in learning a foreign language.

Speaking is harder

> The reason is that it's "all or nothing". You either know and recognize all of the words in a sentence, or you can't cope with the sentence at all.

Disagree; you can make sense of parts of a sentence and infer the rest or get some clues; actually that's the normal state while learning.

Eg: "How do I go to the station?"

"It is XXXX, you YYYY ZZZZ walk there, you need to take a taxi WWWW KKKK Uber"

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#155

Post by [deleted] »

drastorguev wrote: post #138
TheRealPomax wrote: post #92

Please do not block "using the website" until someone gives you access to the microphone. Simply make the parts of the page that rely on the microphone not work, and make it obvious they won't work until people give access to the devices you need access to. And in the mean time let them browse the page as normal, instead of force-hiding the content scroll bar and presenting a full screen overlay modal. If your page e…

Thanks for the feedback! We didn't realise this would pose such a problem. We've updated the website so it asks for microphone permission after people press the 'Record' button.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#156

Post by kanwisher »

drastorguev wrote: post #138
TheRealPomax wrote: post #92

Please do not block "using the website" until someone gives you access to the microphone. Simply make the parts of the page that rely on the microphone not work, and make it obvious they won't work until people give access to the devices you need access to. And in the mean time let them browse the page as normal, instead of force-hiding the content scroll bar and presenting a full screen overlay modal. If your page e…

Thanks for the feedback! We didn't realise this would pose such a problem. We've updated the website so it asks for microphone permission after people press the 'Record' button.

Still broken on IOS

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#157

Post by drastorguev »

unforeseen9991 wrote: post #152
phyrex wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on my iPhone you haven’t

Not on my PC running Chrome you haven't either

OK, could we please ask - did you access the website before we made the changes? If so - have you tried clearing your browser cache?

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#158

Post by james_s_tayler »

dmix wrote: post #135
james_s_tayler wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some alright dramas that come out of Taiwan.

Yeah from there and Hong Kong there's a lot of more western friendly content (see: translated). But I'm interested in mainland Chinese content that day-to-day people watch there. Like I want to know what their very of "Friends" or even serious stuff like "The Wire" would look like, even if the industry hasn't yet fully matured creatively. Most of the most popular Chinese sitcoms I've read about seem to be a strange b…

Exactly. Hence the suggestion. Just watch the Taiwanese stuff.

I've found close to nothing culturally worthwhile from the mainland.

Edit: actually, now that I think about it... I could never find anything when I was outside the mainland but I went there for a 3 month business trip one time and I signed up to various local services (Spotify / Netflix equivalents) and there f;r the first time I felt I had access to a decent amount of content I enjoyed.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#159

Post by yomly »

natch wrote: post #93
yomly wrote: post #14

From experience of trying to converse with actual fluent speakers of Mandarin, there is a huge gap going from what you learn in the classroom, where you practise the tones in slow-mo, and how people speak and listen in reality. IMO there's no replacement for hardcore practise here - at the end of the day it is most like a physical skill so the learning tools you use for practising an instrument or sports technique ar…

>there are only 4 tones 5

I guess you're right - I don't know if emphasis placed on this has changed over the years but the neutral tone was always a bit of an after thought/edge case when I was taught.

Though I also wouldn't really consider my formal Mandarin education to be particularly rigorous or thorough...

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#160

Post by topmonk »

romaaeterna wrote: post #153
topmonk wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds interesting. I've been trying to use movies (something called "substudy"* which converts subtitled movies to a csv file which I then import them as cards into anki), but I find it very difficult. Could you point me in the direction of some of these simple audio books? * substudy is here: http://www.randomhacks.net/substudy/

The problem with movies (and TV), I find, is that it is fewer words per minute than a book. Though availability of English language television seems to be a great aid for ESL learners, so it's not wasted time at all. Conversation practice with a native speaker is probably the ideal, but audiobooks are cheap and available. You can get around the disadvantage of not having a native trying to make themselves understood…

Ok, but what is your exact technique? Do you periodically pause the tape so you can follow along with it using the book in written form? Or just plain listen?

Also, are you studying Chinese this way or a language more similar to English? With all the different grammar and word order in Chinese, I can't see how I could pick up the meaning without some reference, unless I was extremely familiar with the material.

Edit: Also because there are vocal sounds in English that aren't pronouncable in Chinese, even character names are not the same. “Gandalf” becomes “gan dow foo”, for instance

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