Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#71

Post by pas » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #65

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really pass the smell test for me. Even native speakers of a language in its native country are explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary in school. I could believe the Wikipedia article's weaker claim, that there's an extra step between instinctively remembering "了 is the perfective particle" and being fluent in the perfective aspect. But the idea that explicit instruction is useless , that consciously k…

> Even native speakers of a language in its native country are explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary in school It is not that there’s no value whatsoever in formal study of grammar. It might come in handy if you want to be a linguist, an editor, a high-level writer, a lawyer, or the like. If students want to take a grammar course in high school or college that seems okay with me. It just doesn’t teach basic langua…

Grammar for learning a second language is helpful. Helps you to understand how to map what you want to say, and what you heard/read.

That said, brute force practice work reeeeally well for language. And naturally people will build a kind of internal grammar anyway. But knowing what is what can help with that too.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#72

Post by pseingatl » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

Doesn't work on Safari or Vivaldi on Mac OS. After working on tones, I proudly showed them off to a Chinese friend. "Are you saying it or singing it?" he asked. It was then I realized how subtle these tones have to be for conversation.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#73

Post by grizzles » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:20 PM UTC

kenneth wrote: post #49

I'm currently learning Mandarin. My strategy so far has been to take intensive classes with a private teacher (a professional from a language school), 2h every day I'm in town. Each course is 20 classes (i.e. 40h), and after 10 courses you're supposed to be reasonably conversational. Because I only take classes when I'm not out of town, and I'm constantly traveling, I've completed about 3 levels in 6 months. I've dec…

Based on my experience learning Japanese I'd say this is the perfect approach. In the early days, people should stay away from the written side of a language.

As someone not in China but interested in learning, I'd prefer to try to understand what I'm hearing before working on tonal pronounciation. This is why I'd love and pay good money for a dataset of engaging Chinese tv shows, etc with the English translation and the Hanyu Pinyin displayed simultaneously and perfectly synchronized to what's being spoken on the screen. For me, listening comprehension is everything.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#74

Post by zichen » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #51

kenneth wrote: post #49

I'm currently learning Mandarin. My strategy so far has been to take intensive classes with a private teacher (a professional from a language school), 2h every day I'm in town. Each course is 20 classes (i.e. 40h), and after 10 courses you're supposed to be reasonably conversational. Because I only take classes when I'm not out of town, and I'm constantly traveling, I've completed about 3 levels in 6 months. I've dec…

I’ve tried this approach but it’s impossible to find a tutor in SF :/ So far I’ve used duchinese and wordswing but it’s def not as effective.

Sign up for lessons online at italki.com! I've only used it to do language exchange, but they have a bunch of teachers there who teach via Skype, and you'll probably pay less than what you would for a local teacher.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#75

Post by yellow_lead » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

It's not really working for me or my girlfriend (native speaker). We can't get past 喝(hē) (tone 1). It keeps thinking it's a third tone.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#76

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:23 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #65

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really pass the smell test for me. Even native speakers of a language in its native country are explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary in school. I could believe the Wikipedia article's weaker claim, that there's an extra step between instinctively remembering "了 is the perfective particle" and being fluent in the perfective aspect. But the idea that explicit instruction is useless , that consciously k…

> Even native speakers of a language in its native country are explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary in school It is not that there’s no value whatsoever in formal study of grammar. It might come in handy if you want to be a linguist, an editor, a high-level writer, a lawyer, or the like. If students want to take a grammar course in high school or college that seems okay with me. It just doesn’t teach basic langua…

But I don't follow the basic assumption that the way native speakers become fluent is particularly effective. No matter how much explicit instruction helps, native speakers couldn't learn basic fluency that way, because there's no way to deliver explicit instruction to a baby.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#77

Post by yorwba » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:24 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #15

ylyn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually fine. (I'm a native bilingual speaker, although not from PRC.) Also, the 3rd tone is characterised more by being low than the fall-then-rise. In fast speech the rising part is often not heard; it's only really present in stressed syllables or possibly at the ends of sentences.

Any tips for the ü?

yu combines the tongue position of yi and the lip rounding of wu. Being able to take apart the individual components of a sound and consciously reassemble them into something different is very helpful for language learning.

If you're not sure what the components are, try reading the corresponding Wikipedia article (usually linked in the phonology section of the article about the given language): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_front_rounded_vowel

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#78

Post by Leary » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:26 PM UTC

Bilingual native speaker here, got 0/3 of my attempts.

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#79

Post by yomly » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

jcampbell1 wrote: post #37

yomly wrote: post #14

From experience of trying to converse with actual fluent speakers of Mandarin, there is a huge gap going from what you learn in the classroom, where you practise the tones in slow-mo, and how people speak and listen in reality. IMO there's no replacement for hardcore practise here - at the end of the day it is most like a physical skill so the learning tools you use for practising an instrument or sports technique ar…

I built a little tool to help with tone pairs. There are vocab sets to explore all the combinations and a listening exercise. There is a huge jump from knowing the 4 tones from a pinyin chart and listening to full sentences. Learning the flavor of the 16 (19?) combinations is a great stepping stone. https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-tones-learn-the-right-way-...

You're the best - I was just thinking that something with live vocab would be useful

Re: Show HN: Mandarin Tone Trainer – A ‘Helping Ear’ for Mandarin Pronunciation

#80

Post by yorwba » Sat, Dec 21, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #76

jacobolus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even native speakers of a language in its native country are explicitly taught grammar and vocabulary in school It is not that there’s no value whatsoever in formal study of grammar. It might come in handy if you want to be a linguist, an editor, a high-level writer, a lawyer, or the like. If students want to take a grammar course in high school or college that seems okay with me. It just doesn’t teach basic langua…

But I don't follow the basic assumption that the way native speakers become fluent is particularly effective. No matter how much explicit instruction helps, native speakers couldn't learn basic fluency that way, because there's no way to deliver explicit instruction to a baby.

Agreed, but learning grammar before you can even understand the examples used to illustrate a rule is putting the cart before the horse.

On the other hand, once you know a few specific instances, it's helpful to explicitly point out that they're governed by the same rule and give an abstract statement of how the rule works. That way you can check yourself without relying on a teacher to point out your mistakes.