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Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

backreaction.blogspot.com

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Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#201
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Various specific kinds of measuring devices the details of which are an established part of QM. They're not though. There's no generally accepted definition of what is and isn't a measuring device. And, as per the quantum eraser experiment, the exact same equipment might be considered as a measuring device or not a measuring device, depending on what happens in the future. > So, which is the interaction that causes…

> But, broadly, interacting with an object in superposition in a way that depends on that superposition will cause entanglement. This doesn't explain the cause of entanglement. It just explains the circumstances under which entanglement occurs. > I appreciate that this must sound exactly as vague as the definition of a measurement That's because it is beyond the mathematics. > But for those familiar with QM it really…

> This doesn't explain the cause of entanglement. It just explains the circumstances under which entanglement occurs.

"Entanglement" is just a term for a particular kind of behaviour that (some) solutions to the Schrodinger equation exhibit. I can't tell you why physical reality conforms to the Schrodinger equation, but I believe we're all agreed that it does.

> That's because it is beyond the mathematics.

No it isn't. It's right there in the mathematics.

> This is not true. I'm familiar with QM and it is vague to me.

With all due respect, if entanglement is vague to you then you're not familiar with QM. Entanglement is a basic quantum phenomenon and the results of quite simple experiments cannot be understood without it. You will find respected authorities on QM who disagree on interpretations, or disagree on how we should think about measurements. But you will not find any who disagree on what the phenomenon of entanglement is or when it occurs, regardless of what interpretation of QM they subscribe to.

> I wouldn't know, because it's not what can be experienced. Some folks argue this is exactly what makes many worlds unscientific.

Just the opposite: blithely asserting that you're not in a superposition, based on zero scientific evidence, is what's unscientific. Unless and until we can come up with some experiment that would distinguish being in a superposition from not being in a superposition, we should be agnostic about whether we're in a superposition, and have no particular reason to favour a theory that claims we're in a superposition over one that claims we're not (or vice versa).

> What kind of microscope are you using to look at wave functions? Or do you mean at the mathematical expression of the wavefunction?

If you're claiming that the wavefunction is a physically real thing then the Copenhagenists will kick you out :P.

> Another empty word.

Not at all; while it's a word that's frequently abused, it does mean something specific and well-defined.

> Yes. And if you think about it, this is the same mystery which makes Copenhagen so unsatisfactory, just put into a different framework.

I don't think it is so mysterious: if that mathematical description of reality is accurate, what else could we possibly expect to experience? To claim that subjective experience is messy and complicated is a much smaller assertion than to claim that this messy complication exists in objective physical reality, as the Copenhagenists do.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#202
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, broadly, interacting with an object in superposition in a way that depends on that superposition will cause entanglement. This doesn't explain the cause of entanglement. It just explains the circumstances under which entanglement occurs. > I appreciate that this must sound exactly as vague as the definition of a measurement That's because it is beyond the mathematics. > But for those familiar with QM it really…

> This doesn't explain the cause of entanglement. It just explains the circumstances under which entanglement occurs. "Entanglement" is just a term for a particular kind of behaviour that (some) solutions to the Schrodinger equation exhibit. I can't tell you why physical reality conforms to the Schrodinger equation, but I believe we're all agreed that it does. > That's because it is beyond the mathematics. No it isn'…

> blithely asserting that you're not in a superposition, based on zero scientific evidence, is what's unscientific.

If this was true I would offer another theory: an untraceable Flying Spaghetti Monster is responsible for QM. You won’t be able to gather any evidence against it, so you cannot rule it out. This theory would be on par with your many worlds theory. I can also write down physically looking equations which describe its behavior.

I think the gist of science over religion is exactly the requirement to provide evidence for the claims it makes not evidence against opposing claims. Otherwise science is dogma.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#203
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't explain the cause of entanglement. It just explains the circumstances under which entanglement occurs. "Entanglement" is just a term for a particular kind of behaviour that (some) solutions to the Schrodinger equation exhibit. I can't tell you why physical reality conforms to the Schrodinger equation, but I believe we're all agreed that it does. > That's because it is beyond the mathematics. No it isn'…

> blithely asserting that you're not in a superposition, based on zero scientific evidence, is what's unscientific. If this was true I would offer another theory: an untraceable Flying Spaghetti Monster is responsible for QM. You won’t be able to gather any evidence against it, so you cannot rule it out. This theory would be on par with your many worlds theory. I can also write down physically looking equations which…

> If this was true I would offer another theory: an untraceable Flying Spaghetti Monster is responsible for QM. You won’t be able to gather any evidence against it, so you cannot rule it out. This theory would be on par with your many worlds theory. I can also write down physically looking equations which describe its behavior.

Just the opposite: positing a collapse phenomenon which makes no difference to observable reality is on a par with positing an untraceable Flying Spaghetti Monster. Many-worlds is not an extra assumption but the absence of one: it's the assumption that we behave like normal physical objects, and all the normal, experimentally-established phenomena of quantum mechanics (such as superposition) apply to us just as they apply to other matter we experiment on.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#204
post #195
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm super curious about people who make this claim. Are you not conscious? The idea that there are people walking around who look and act like everybody else but behind the eyes there is nothing is terrifying and exhilarating to me. I'm open to the idea that when you observe yourself there is nothing looking back at you, but that doesn't generalize the necessarily subjective experience.

Are you asking me? Obviously we all experience what we call consciousness, noticing ourselves noticing, and we all imagine we have free will, which really only means we don't know what we will do tomorrow. But neither of those have anything to do with physics, except to the degree that the stuff we are made out of runs according to physics. So, anybody supposing that either concept has anything to do with quantum phy…

Yes, well, we can't notice each other noticing. Yesterday I watched an ML researcher talk far and wide about how one can build consciousness out of an attention mechanism and finally at the end someone in the audience called him out on his BS and he admitted the had an 'easy problem of consciousness' concept. IMO that should never be called consciousness in the first place. It may soon be downright dangerous to confuse the content of the mind for its entirety, because real mind-machine interfaces are already working in monkeys. We need to prepare ourselves to deal with consciousness for real, but since the experience remains subjective our normal assumptions are not as effective. Right now we can not say with confidence that everyone with a functioning mind is conscious.

The tools of physics are developing and while working out the kinks of the standard model a new set of tools are emerging. These tools deal with information and complexity. The boundary between the terms 'entropy' of CS and physics is blurring, and decoherence is a physical information process. Many ANN research papers that I have read use concepts familiar from physics.

Why would there exist separate realities for information processes, consciousness, and physics? Personally I think that consciousness is inseparable from physics and it makes no sense to say that one precedes the other. I think our minds simply notice a universe of consciousness and our confusion comes from adding retrievable memory on top of it. I challenge anyone to come up with a simpler explanation...

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#205
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you asking me? Obviously we all experience what we call consciousness, noticing ourselves noticing, and we all imagine we have free will, which really only means we don't know what we will do tomorrow. But neither of those have anything to do with physics, except to the degree that the stuff we are made out of runs according to physics. So, anybody supposing that either concept has anything to do with quantum phy…

Yes, well, we can't notice each other noticing. Yesterday I watched an ML researcher talk far and wide about how one can build consciousness out of an attention mechanism and finally at the end someone in the audience called him out on his BS and he admitted the had an 'easy problem of consciousness' concept. IMO that should never be called consciousness in the first place. It may soon be downright dangerous to confu…

To say "consciousness is inseparable from physics" reads like nonsense to me. You might as well say "speed is inseparable from cars", or "corporate governance is inseparable from office chairs". Studying one tells you nothing about the other, and mentioning both in the same sentence justs suggests you are confused but don't know it.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With determinism you determine the choice by thinking and finding the best option, at least it's properly your choice. With indeterminism you don't determine anything, because the choice is not determined by anything, it's just a random process independent from you.

What is doing the choosing, your thalamus?

The person.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#207
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, well, we can't notice each other noticing. Yesterday I watched an ML researcher talk far and wide about how one can build consciousness out of an attention mechanism and finally at the end someone in the audience called him out on his BS and he admitted the had an 'easy problem of consciousness' concept. IMO that should never be called consciousness in the first place. It may soon be downright dangerous to confu…

To say " consciousness is inseparable from physics " reads like nonsense to me. You might as well say "speed is inseparable from cars", or "corporate governance is inseparable from office chairs". Studying one tells you nothing about the other, and mentioning both in the same sentence justs suggests you are confused but don't know it.

I mean to say that consciousness exists in the universe, therefore it is a part of the universe, therefore you can not take consciousness out of the universe. The set of all things contains consciousness. I'm trying to implicate the unorganized information process of quantum decoherence as consciousness, and the organized information process of a neural network as the mind. One can neatly describe both processes with what appears to be the same laws.

I reason that since a process which is described by the same mathematics gives rise to the mind, then with a slight tweak it will give rise to something else. Since consciousness is close at hand I plug it in and try to see if it fits.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#208
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say " consciousness is inseparable from physics " reads like nonsense to me. You might as well say "speed is inseparable from cars", or "corporate governance is inseparable from office chairs". Studying one tells you nothing about the other, and mentioning both in the same sentence justs suggests you are confused but don't know it.

I mean to say that consciousness exists in the universe, therefore it is a part of the universe, therefore you can not take consciousness out of the universe. The set of all things contains consciousness. I'm trying to implicate the unorganized information process of quantum decoherence as consciousness, and the organized information process of a neural network as the mind. One can neatly describe both processes with…

Might as well try corporate governance, then, or fiscal responsibility, or moral probity, or turbulent mixing. Why choose consciousness to try to shoehorn into the physics? Are two things not fathomed better than one?

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#209
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say " consciousness is inseparable from physics " reads like nonsense to me. You might as well say "speed is inseparable from cars", or "corporate governance is inseparable from office chairs". Studying one tells you nothing about the other, and mentioning both in the same sentence justs suggests you are confused but don't know it.

I mean to say that consciousness exists in the universe, therefore it is a part of the universe, therefore you can not take consciousness out of the universe. The set of all things contains consciousness. I'm trying to implicate the unorganized information process of quantum decoherence as consciousness, and the organized information process of a neural network as the mind. One can neatly describe both processes with…

I have never heard of anybody using the Schroedinger equation to analyze either a neural net or psychology. Where do you get the idea they involve the same mathematics?
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