Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground • Hacker News Board

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#291

Post by yters » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

Woberto wrote: post #288

yters wrote: post #282

Stamping out murder only has pushed it underground! Stamping out rape has only pushed it underground! Stamping out kidnapping has only pushed it underground! I long for the day all of these practices can be legalized and done safely and in the open!

These all seem like false equivalences. I think it should be "stamping out _online_ murder" etc. And this makes more sense - if people can no longer pursue illegal activities online, they may do so in person. Which I still think is an improvement, because I think it's harder to commit some of these crimes in person.

Oh I didn't realize people were only having sex with kids in virtual reality. Then I agree, better to keep that virtual instead of having them do it real life. Thanks for clearing things up for me!

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#292

Post by brutt » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #191

arnoooooo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution is still about selling what is most intimate, not really the same. Also, how are we supposed to reach gender equality if one gender's body is for sale as a matter of routine ? Note that I still agree with your point on being a cleaner, that's why I think universal income is a good idea.

Coal miners sell their body for their job too. There are plenty of jobs that will destroy your body but pay better than average for your skill level. At the end of the day when an adult makes the decision to do a particular job because it pays better than the alternative we can't automatically count them as a "victim". It robs people of their agency and infantilizes them.

Worker unions constantly pushing laws to improve working conditions of workers, so they will not need to sell their health. BTW: will you suck me for $50? I'm looking for a contractor.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#293

Post by throwno » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #259

codingdave wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex trafficking is not consenting adults. There is a significant difference between a sex worker who voluntarily engages in their profession vs. people who are forced into it.

if you can legalize adult sex work there stands a good chance the trafficking side would decrease as there would be a legal outlet.

Working in a nail salon is legal, but that doesn't stop them from employing trafficked workers.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#294

Post by ryacko » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #161

ryacko wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't speak English to the prostitute or she seems afraid, it would be a suspicious situation. "child sex traffickers" I don't know where you get that from.

That's what it's called if the person you are paying for sex with is not an adult.

Reasonable mistake, must happen all the time when people have sex with someone with no breasts, hairless in the pertinent areas, and don't talk at all with them.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#295

Post by abfan1127 » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #290

yters wrote: post #282

Stamping out murder only has pushed it underground! Stamping out rape has only pushed it underground! Stamping out kidnapping has only pushed it underground! I long for the day all of these practices can be legalized and done safely and in the open!

Truly voluntary prostitution isn't the same as murder, rape, or kidnapping. People have to work to survive. Some people make so little at work that if they lost that job, they'd be homeless or suffer other harm. And, most people would rather not be at work. Companies often provide this work. Are workers slaves? Are companies exploiting workers? If that type of worker-company relationship is morally permissible, then…

the metric I use is mutually consenting? Do both parties consent to the agreement? Then it should be legal. Do I consent to trade XXX for YYY with a company or other individual? Does the company/individual consent to trade YYY for XXX?

I don't consent to murder, rape, or kidnapping of myself, nor do I consent to do those to others.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#296

Post by mlrtime » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #94

paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

> designed to legislate morality Like... almost all other laws? Do you think murder is immoral? Well guess what? There's a law for that. Just because you disagree with the morality being legislated, you can't pretend that "legislating morality" is the problem.

Assisted suicide would be a better comparison. Both parties consent to the murder, should it be illegal?

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#297

Post by Gunax » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

misnome wrote: post #119

belorn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can just point to Sweden. The meaning of prostitution has change in the public discussed to be the same as rape, regardless of consent. Being pro-prostitution here is the same as being pro-rape which is very anti-feminist in eye of the Swedish public and people with such views are seen as far-right. The two arguments that people here use is that a person that do sex for money would not had done so voluntary, thus t…

How do either of the arguments not apply to every single job or task that anyone does for renumeration? I would not do my job without being paid, therefore I am being forced to work against my will?

I would not suggest applying logic to most political positions.

Views are formed in the gut, not the brain.

People are against prostitution because they find it disgusting. Their justifications are all ex post facto.

And this applies to most views, including ones I hold (although that's difficult to admit).

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#298

Post by naasking » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #124

paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

First - every country legislates morality in a variety of ways, and making/keeping prostitution illegal is not merely a religious issue. The majority of people oppose decriminalisation [1] even in fairly progressive Ontario, Canada, 6 in 10 oppose it [2] Second - it's a very reasonable course of action to make an activity which is deemed harmful - actually illegal. "Smoking is bad" -> "Let's make it widely available"…

> A large, wide open, legalised & regulated sex trade may simply provide more customers for nefarious sex-traders who can take all the profit & provide underage girls (which will surely remain illegal).

Alternately, decriminalizing sex work means law enforcement would stop wasting their time their pursuing adult sex workers doing legit business, and actually focus on the trafficking of those actually being exploited.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#299

Post by jkaplowitz » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

perilunar wrote: post #61

istjohn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empirically, the vast majority of those who hire sex workers are men. But yes, as I said, it's a gross over-simplification. I would hope everyone opposes sex slavery. In the progressive circles I'm familiar with in my midwestern city (Columbus, Ohio), I've never seen anyone make a feminist case for decriminalization or legalization. The consensus among progressives here is that sex work is bad for women. The voices I…

> In the progressive circles I'm familiar with ... I've never seen anyone make a feminist case for decriminalization or legalization. Well there's plenty of sex workers online you could ask. They almost universally argue for decriminalisation (not legalisation) on feminist grounds.

Indeed. I'm curious: Do the sex workers you speak with claim that decriminalization and legalization are two different concepts as applied to themselves, or do they reject the label of legalization as dehumanizing because it implies that a human can be illegal?

(Yes, technically no anti-sex-worker laws claim any category of human is inherently illegal, instead defining some of them as criminals through outlawing certain activities, but you wouldn't know it from how much stigma is attached to public discourse about sex workers.)

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#300

Post by stevenwoo » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

overcast wrote: post #172

bdhdbbdbdjdns wrote: post #104

As an occasional consumer of sex work, here is the reality: yes, It’s more dangerous now for both parties, but much more so for the women. The labor supply has gone down sharply because the economics went upside down. If you can’t count on as many clients per day the fixed cost of the hotel room becomes harder to risk so many girls exited the market. Prices have gone up sharply. The kind of girls that were charging $…

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, what is your use case for paying for sex? Married? High powered executive? I can't imagine paying for something that is easily free on a million different dating apps.

My understanding from reddit comments on posts that show up in /r/all, almost all the NSFW photos not from pornography that make it to the front page are from escorts, and the /r/tinder success percentage for males is less than one percent for all but the super hot so I could see how some might give up on the time investment in online hookup culture for a sure thing.