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Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

theguardian.com

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Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#111

Post by throwawaylolx »

sooheon wrote: post #89
opportune wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not deserve the downvotes. Just because the purifier takes particulates out of the air doesn’t mean the effects on humans isn’t placebo

Sure, but this is misplaced skepticism. There have been many studies attesting to the harms of PM 2.5 and the benefits of intervention. The onus isn't on a single consumer to set up a double blind, randomized test for himself, the onus is on you to simply google for the many that have been already done. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.h... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ htt…

Just because it has an effect on the average person doesn't mean it must have an effect on every person. It can still be a placebo for any one individual, and I don't see the harm of asking how does one double-check if the effect is real or not.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#112

Post by aalleavitch »

throwawaylolx wrote: post #108
aalleavitch wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I do have is reliable data regarding the working conditions of average people in industrializing economies, and the correlation between consumer debt, depression, and suicide: https://www.aspeninstitute.org/blog-posts/hidden-costs-of-co... > In the US alone, individuals who struggle to pay off their debts and loans are more than twice as likely to experience mental health problems, including depression and anxie…

And what were the working conditions of the average people in pre-industrial economies? >The fact remained that at the beginning of the nineteenth century an estimated three-quarters of all people alive were trapped in bondage against their will either in some form of slavery or serfdom. [1] The common historical interpretion today is that the industrial revolution _improved_ the standards of living for the average p…

The past is almost unanimously a worse place to live than the present, but this is due to a large number of social, political, and technological changes that have occurred over time. Part of the reason the industrial revolution improved standards of living overall was due to atrocious living and working conditions, along with higher access to information, driving workers to secure their own rights. I wouldn't argue that feudalism is a better way to live than industrialization, but I think there's room to question how it has caused direct negative impacts in our lives.

Anyway, this study shows that medium development countries have significantly lower suicide rates than high and very high development countries, which could lend support to my position:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221060061...

> There has been no worldwide ecological study on suicide as a global major public health problem. This study aimed to identify the variations in suicide specific rates using the Human Development Index (HDI) and some health related variables among countries around the world. In this ecological study, we obtained the data from the World Bank Report 2013. The analysis was restricted to 91 countries for which both the epidemiologic data from the suicide rates and HDI were available. Overall, the global prevalence of suicide rate was 10.5 (95% confidence intervals: 8.8, 12.2) per 100,000 individuals, which significantly varied according to gender (16.3 in males vs. 4.6 in females, p < 0.001) and different levels of human development (11.64/100,000 individuals in very high development countries, 7.93/100,000 individuals in medium development countries, and 13.94/100,000 individuals in high development countries, p = 0.004). In conclusion, the suicide rate varies greatly between countries with different development levels. Our findings also suggest that male gender and HDI components are associated with an increased risk of suicide behaviors. Hence, detecting population subgroups with a high suicide risk and reducing the inequality of socioeconomic determinants are necessary to prevent this disorder around the world.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#113

Post by Dumblydorr »

aalleavitch wrote: post #76

I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The problem is not chemical. The problem is how we live.

Nice idea, unscientific though, since we have very good evidence that pollution crosses the blood brain barrier and damages cells, increasing dementia and mental health risk and poisoning cells in the brain, lung, and other systems.

Hypothetical Theories are nice, but not when actual evidence contradicts them. Do you have any actual evidence for your comment?

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#114

Post by vanderZwan »

homulilly wrote: post #60
im3w1l wrote: post #7

> The results show strong correlations, but research that would prove a causal link is difficult because ethical experiments cannot deliberately expose people to harm. This is kind of my hobby horse: you don't need to subject people to harm to test causuality. You can do the opposite: Remove harm and see what happens. Maybe give people free HVAC upgrades to filter more particles.

Or, like, reduce air pollution since in addition to this possibility it's already known to cause asthma, lung cancer, and heart disease.

This kind of gets into philosophical questions about what could still be considered a causal link. If the increased chance of depression is caused by significant reduction in quality of life which is caused by pollution, do we still say air pollution has a causal link with depression? I'm leaning towards yes because removing the air pollution will through multiple steps reduce depression/suicide in that case.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#115

Post by aalleavitch »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #113
aalleavitch wrote: post #76

I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The problem is not chemical. The problem is how we live.

Nice idea, unscientific though, since we have very good evidence that pollution crosses the blood brain barrier and damages cells, increasing dementia and mental health risk and poisoning cells in the brain, lung, and other systems. Hypothetical Theories are nice, but not when actual evidence contradicts them. Do you have any actual evidence for your comment?

> About 11% of the workers reported suicidal ideation at follow-up, while 3% of them reported moderate/severe suicidal ideation at follow-up. After controlling for age, marital status, race, family history of suicide, and suicidal ideation at baseline, low skill discretion and job strain (a combination of low job control and high job demands) were associated with total suicidal ideation. After excluding those with suicidal ideation at baseline from analysis and further controlling for other work stressors, job strain was strongly associated with moderate/severe suicidal ideation: ORs, 4.29 (1.30–14.15) for quartile-based job strain and 3.77 (1.21–11.70) for median-based job strain. Long work hours (> 40 h/week vs. ≤ 40 h/week) also increased the likelihood for moderate/severe suicidal ideation: OR 4.06 (1.08–15.19).

> Job strain and long work hours were longitudinally associated with moderate/severe suicidal ideation. Increasing job control and ensuring optimal level of work demands, including 40 h or less of work per week may be an important strategy for the prevention of suicide in working populations.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00420-018-1330-7

Here's a study showing that suicide risk varies with workplace, workplace environment, and financial strain: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-suicide-occupation...

Also: http://electronicswatch.org/the-link-between-employment-cond...

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#116

Post by throwawaylolx »

aalleavitch wrote: post #112
throwawaylolx wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what were the working conditions of the average people in pre-industrial economies? >The fact remained that at the beginning of the nineteenth century an estimated three-quarters of all people alive were trapped in bondage against their will either in some form of slavery or serfdom. [1] The common historical interpretion today is that the industrial revolution _improved_ the standards of living for the average p…

The past is almost unanimously a worse place to live than the present, but this is due to a large number of social, political, and technological changes that have occurred over time. Part of the reason the industrial revolution improved standards of living overall was due to atrocious living and working conditions, along with higher access to information, driving workers to secure their own rights. I wouldn't argue t…

>this study shows that medium development countries have significantly lower suicide rates than high and very high development countries

That basically follows from the definition of HDI: one of the three components of HDI is life expectancy, so even if people in countries of different HDI would have equal tendencies to commit suicide, a lower proportion of people would actually end up committing suicide in lower HDI countries as they would likely die due to other causes either at birth or later.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#118

Post by blauditore »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #113
aalleavitch wrote: post #76

I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The problem is not chemical. The problem is how we live.

Nice idea, unscientific though, since we have very good evidence that pollution crosses the blood brain barrier and damages cells, increasing dementia and mental health risk and poisoning cells in the brain, lung, and other systems. Hypothetical Theories are nice, but not when actual evidence contradicts them. Do you have any actual evidence for your comment?

There are other thinkable causes: Air pollution reduces total daylight exposure of people, and light has been observed to have strong effects on mood and mental health, among other things.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#119

Post by IanSanders »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #113
aalleavitch wrote: post #76

I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The problem is not chemical. The problem is how we live.

Nice idea, unscientific though, since we have very good evidence that pollution crosses the blood brain barrier and damages cells, increasing dementia and mental health risk and poisoning cells in the brain, lung, and other systems. Hypothetical Theories are nice, but not when actual evidence contradicts them. Do you have any actual evidence for your comment?

Could be both.

>actual evidence contradicts them

Where exactly?

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#120

Post by tomrod »

sooheon wrote: post #94
tomrod wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair critique, as the GP didn't say certainty but my response was pre-supposed. I would say that we don't have a well-founded, commonly known model linking air pollution and depression. However their confounding experience through poverty is accepted and easily understood.

My bad, I read “confidence” and put “certainty” in their mouth. I can agree other already understood factors exist, and may confound the problem. But confounding != negation. And the health effects of air pollution are well understood and bad enough that denying the link from pollution -> depression is equivalent to denying link from bad health -> depression.

We agree on this point.
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