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Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

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Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went beyond the child quota, the people who were forbidden to have another child, the prisoners forced to work in factories, the prisoners killed to have their organs harvested, etc. Vacation is one thing, but the evil of the government is well documented. Hong Kong used to be…

As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe. But not for lack of noble laws, in which the USA excels, but rather, for lack of public education that would entitle everyone to be aware and enjoy such freedom. Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity: if one's family is not focused in providing an environment (and usually the funds too) to foster a high educa…

"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe."

Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally politically free: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15

And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm

"lack of public education"

What are you talking about? The US has more than enough public schools.

"Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity"

Urban Myth. The per-capita GDP in the US is higher than almost every European country. Around $10,000 more than France, the UK or Germany. So your average US citizen is 30% wealthier than your average European.

Income inequality (assuming that's a bad thing) is only slightly lower in the US than Europe too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Also the US has a much higher proportion of the population with University qualifications than most of Europe too: http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html

"In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time"

Could you back that up with some evidence?

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#32
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great thing about secrecy is that you never really know what's going on. Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why? Do you honestly believe that prosecutions, FBI investigations, etc are never politically motivated?

"Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why?" Well, not you, and not anyone you know. The mere fact that you're comfortable posting this stuff on a public site, under your own name, demonstrates that you have ZERO fear that someone will break down your door tonight and take you off to a "secret prison". To be quite blunt: you don't even believe your own bullshit.

This is not reddit. Be polite.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe. But not for lack of noble laws, in which the USA excels, but rather, for lack of public education that would entitle everyone to be aware and enjoy such freedom. Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity: if one's family is not focused in providing an environment (and usually the funds too) to foster a high educa…

"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe." Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally politically free: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm "lack of public education" What are you talking about? The US ha…

"Not according to Freedom House."

The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media

The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies capturing information on citizens continuously?) and 4 (there was an independent media some decades ago, not anymore). 3 is allowed in full only within the privacy of your home. Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom.

About "lack of public education": I am no native English speaker. I meant to say, lack of education of the public. General culture levels are very low among USA citizens. My data: you have no idea how many times I've been told that Spain is in the north of Mexico, and not by Mexicans obviously. Plus how many USA citizens can locate Iraq in a map? The statistics I've seen are hilarious. Severe lacunae in geography and history among USA citizens is the norm -even though my daily social environment is a university. Exceptions are very much welcome, and I have found out they are almost all first-generation americans with properly educated parents (by which I mean, their parents were born elsewhere and came to the USA as adults).

If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. But the main point is: if born poor and grown uneducated, here in the USA the citizen is likely to remain poor and uneducated. Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm, then you're on your own and it's up to you, but at least the impact of the socioeconomic status of one's parent's is removed from the equation (not totally, but substantially).

In my daily experience at the university, senior undergraduate students show the level of knowledge I am used to expect from freshmen, and the writing skills of a 14 year old. There are exceptions of course. And it's good that they catch-up during the first two years of graduate school. Something is horribly wrong in the education USA citizens receive between ages 14 and 22.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#34
You guys are still arguing about this after two days? There ought to be a variant of Parkinson's Law about how much easier it is to argue about politics than other matters. It's like a ground state one sinks into. Individuals and sites...

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe." Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally politically free: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm "lack of public education" What are you talking about? The US ha…

"Not according to Freedom House." The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies…

"If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens' wealth changes a lot. "

You made that figure up! The reason I also included the Gini coefficient was to demonstrate that income inequality in the US is reasonably low too.

"Don't confuse economical prosperity with freedom."

I didn't. I included BOTH Freedom House's ranking of political freedom (which equates the US as politically equal to Western Europe) AND economic freedom (which sets the US much higher than Europe.)

According to Freedom House freedom of the press in the US is as free as Europe: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=251&year=2006

"Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is the norm"

It's not free. You pay for it in high taxes all your life. Anyway the point is moot as even though you have a "free" education system in Europe the US still has a higher amount of university educated people than Europe according to the OECD.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe." Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally politically free: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15 And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm "lack of public education" What are you talking about? The US ha…

"Not according to Freedom House." The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies…

And yet here you are.

I'm curious: what made you decide to move to a country with no freedom, bad education and no culture?

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not according to Freedom House." The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies? Federal agencies…

And yet here you are. I'm curious: what made you decide to move to a country with no freedom, bad education and no culture?

Good point! And hanging out on the forum of a company which explicitly helps people start companies to freely get rich.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#38
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why?" Well, not you, and not anyone you know. The mere fact that you're comfortable posting this stuff on a public site, under your own name, demonstrates that you have ZERO fear that someone will break down your door tonight and take you off to a "secret prison". To be quite blunt: you don't even believe your own bullshit.

This is not reddit. Be polite.

The gratuitous U.S. bashing in this thread looks exactly like something you'd see on Reddit (more likely, Digg). Not only is it ugly, it's utterly irrelevant to the nominal topic of discussion. Even if the U.S. were Nazi Germany, the Stalinist U.S.S.R., and the Pol Pot regime rolled into one, it would have zero relevance to the ethical position of Google with the Chinese government.

I suppose I could have said that Paul B.'s position (and that of several others) is a classic example of the tu quoque variety of ad hominem fallacy, but that would basically just be using Latin to say the same thing.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet here you are. I'm curious: what made you decide to move to a country with no freedom, bad education and no culture?

Good point! And hanging out on the forum of a company which explicitly helps people start companies to freely get rich.

I came to the USA following a professor I just wanted to work with. He came here in the 80's because of the weather (no kidding), given an existing research environment similar to Europe.

Before landing here I thought the USA was a great country. But my preconceptions have fallen.

I am aware I have started a thread that is drifting way off topic and can potentially get very personal. If you'd like to discuss the issue further over a beer, that'd be great. We can then talk about why I pay almost identical income taxes in the USA and in Spain, and yet here my money doesn't seem to come back to me. You can reach me at my surname at ucla edu.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#40
post #34

You guys are still arguing about this after two days? There ought to be a variant of Parkinson's Law about how much easier it is to argue about politics than other matters. It's like a ground state one sinks into. Individuals and sites...

I've never heard of those, and the last time I tried to edit an OS X keymap I gave up in frustration, but for HTML, a workaround is to type '
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